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Finished Linothorax
#46
I would like to show you this etruscan linothorax.

What do you think it is made of? plates? It looks very thin to me to be metal plates, but don't know...
Javier Sánchez

"A tomb now suffices him for whom the whole world was not sufficient"
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#47
Quote:I would like to show you this etruscan linothorax.

What do you think it is made of? plates? It looks very thin to me to be metal plates, but don't know...

It looks like a depiction of lamellar armour.

Cheers,

Martijn
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#48
This

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MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
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#49
The Mars of Todi is most likely wearing scale armour. The plates are laced to a foundation that has been tailored like a linothorax. It is possible that it is lamellar but it depends on whether the assembly requires the foundation for structural support.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#50
I, too , thought they were plates but some have cited this fresco to show that the armor may have been linen. The white coloring would seem to suggest that is was so.

Peter Connolly, in "Greece and Rome at War" (1996 ed.), opines that the "Mars of Todi" shows plates, "lamellar" to be precise. But a new edition of his book was published two years ago so he may have reassessed his opinion.

Hey Chris,

Very nice work !

I remember seeing your armor on another thread.

The pteruges look great Smile

~Theo
~~~~~jaime~~~~~~
Fathers of the Church
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#51
I too was believing it to be scale but after this fresco and enother one also Etruscan, I think it is linen. If it is linen,I suppose it can't be quilted? And there is a find of Scythian armor with similar construction but it's leather. It looks too thin to be plates over other matterial, but I'm not sure.
Connolly has not updated the "scale" theory in his latest edition.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#52
Yeah, I'd say quilted linen. Thanks for the image theo!
Michael D. Hafer [aka Mythos Ruler, aka eX | Vesper]
In peace men bury their fathers. In war men bury their sons.
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#53
All you have to do it try and make a reconstruction. You won't be able to make quilted cloth look like either the Mars of Todi or the Fresco and still provide any sort of protection. IMO Connolly is correct about the Mars of Todi. Dunno about the fresco. All illustrations can be interpreted dozens of ways. People see what they want to see.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#54
Chris
I just jointed. Your linothorax is great. Would you send me the photos?
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#55
I don't know the date of these sculptures, but they seem to clearly show scales overlapped on one side- as both Dan and I suggested for the armor reconstructed in this thread.


[attachment=336]2364829060_1608cc4ca1.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=335]2363996741_7f9d0159a4.jpg[/attachment]

These scales are very much like the rectangular scales, often iron, that we see from Assyria. It could indicate that this was brought to Italy via Carthage. Iron corslets were evidently a common armor type in Carthage and could have been of this form. One explanation for the white scales might be that they were of rawhide and whitened.


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Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#56
Personally i don't see why one should asume that these scales should be iron(or bronze,like Connolly suggested) In all coloured depictions(and there is a number of them-i know of at least three off the top of my head) they are shown white-while iron in the same paintings is shown blue-grey. And having examined the Mars of Todi closely,i can say with certainty that there are many clues that point to it meant to be leather.
I can't connect the Asyrian armours to 4th century Etruscan cuirasses,to be honest.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#57
Quote:And having examined the Mars of Todi closely,i can say with certainty that there are many clues that point to it meant to be leather.

Can you elaborate? I've been staring at it for a while now as well as the one that Paul just posted, and see very individual plates in place here. But, I can't see any signs on these figures to suggest that the material can be revealed by observation. It could be plates of horn, iron, bronze, leather or bubble gum. Nothing to these figures suggests a specific material beyond a couple of paintings showing them as white... Like the one you showed me the other day, but those are not the statues. They may in fact not even be showing the same sort of armor. Considering the amount of speculation involved here, I think that common characteristics with known armor types is the most efficient way to theorize about what material was really used.

Thus, following from the Assyrian and then the Scythian traditions and considering the widespread use of bronze scale among the Greeks, it seems reasonable to suggest the use of metallic plates on these armors. No where in the ancient world do we see composite armor of leather or fabric to suggest that it's made from hundreds of small squares of such material. It does not follow the same sort of trend in observation as does the theory of them being made from metal. The fact that a couple of paintings show white on the entire surface of the armor is not enough evidence to suggest that they must have been made from fabric... It would be most reasonable to suggest that the depiction is of quilted armor in those paintings if the color was taken into serious consideration, and also safe to say that there are substantial differences between those depictions and ones like the Mars of Todi.

-Gregory
Gregory J. Liebau
The Bronze Age Center
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#58
Quote:It could be plates of horn, iron, bronze, leather or bubble gum.

Although mastic, a type of chickle-like gum, was well known to the ancient Greeks, I find the last option highly unlikely.

Quote:No where in the ancient world do we see composite armor of leather or fabric to suggest that it's made from hundreds of small squares of such material.

What they are suggesting is that the stitching pattern of a quilted armor looks like a lot of little rectangles. I have seen many Byzantine reconstructions that look like this.

There is a tradition of rawhide scales as well.

Quote:I can't connect the Asyrian armours to 4th century Etruscan cuirasses,to be honest.

The scales separated by bands which secure them seem pretty consistant to me:
[attachment=375]ASSYRIAscale.jpg[/attachment]


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Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#59
I don't have a probem with the Mars of Todi being made of leather - leather scale, not quilted leather. Metal is more likely IMO
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#60
Quote:In all coloured depictions(and there is a number of them-i know of at least three off the top of my head) they are shown white-while iron in the same paintings is shown blue-grey.


An immediate response to that is that the white could indicate tinned metal while the blue-grey is untreated iron. Off course the colours could mean a lot of things -- all I'm saying that different colours don't rule out iron.
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