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Finished Linothorax
#61
OK,so now lets speak about the 4th century etruscan armour,shall we?
Here is a photo of the Mars of Todi i took last Easter. Flash was forbiden but i switched off the camera and when i switched on the settings of no-flash were cancelled and this was the only photo with flash i took in the museum. Luckily,at least it was a good photo.
[Image: 4663203664_962bc23088_b.jpg]
In case you can't see it from the photo,all the bands that separate the rows of scales,together with all the outer esges and the edges of all the pteryges consist on a thread that stitch the rows together.The visible part of each scale has 4-5 stitches,and i asume as many on the invisible part of the overlap.
The best coloured illustration of this type of armour is from an etruscan tomband is this one:
[Image: 3234531759_dab78fc723_b.jpg]
The basic difference with the Mars of Todi and this one is that the latter has a band of solid matterial around the stomach,of the same colour as the rest of the scales and the pteryges. It is also obvious that the bronze helmet and greaves are yellow. And that the iron attachment fittings are bluish/grey. In the same painting,the iron weapons are also of this bluish/grey colour and there is one more ordinary tube&yoke cuirass that is of the exact same colour:
[Image: stitchedefin.jpg]
The only other depictions of the same type of armour are also etruscan of the 4th century. There are no greek ones.
Here is another one that somehow Connolly translated into a bronze scale cuirass:
[Image: etruscanmuralorcus.gif]
It is a mystery to me why this cuirass should be asumed to be bronze,when the "scales" are the same colour as the pteryges and different colour than -say- the yellow faced shield! And different than the iron spear point.
Another Etruscan painting:
[Image: etrusk2.jpg]
It is not very clear but you can see the horizontal bands that separate the body and with little imagination the shoulder flaps too. It speaks for itself,but you can see the difference in colour to both the bronze armour and the iron sword. And it is very similar to the Mars of Todi also to the use of solid plates in the top of the shoulder flaps,that here is shown to be bronze plate.
There are examples of similar leather scales. This skythian cuirass for instance:
[Image: leatherscale6thbce.png]
The most similar example in bronze that i could find is this skythian example:
[Image: 34centurybc.jpg]
To me at least the similarity of leather scales to the Mars of Todi is much more pronounced.
Finally,too more pictures of details of the Mars of Todi. Only by the looks of it one can't be conclusive,but to me it looks much more like the behavior of leather.[Image: sdc12659.jpg]
[Image: sdc12658b.jpg]

So,friends,i really can't see the likeliness of it being metal,nor insipred by the Asyrian armour. Fifth century Etruscans used typical tube and yokes identical to the Greeks,or bell cuirasses. The Greeks never adopted the armour,or at least not in such a scale to have been represented in their art. And there are other examples of similar armour made of leather used by people much closer to the Etruscans than the Asyrians,both geographically and chronologically.
The comment about the possibility of them being tinned iron or bronze...it almost doesn't deserve to be argued against,since there is no indication that the Etruscans tinned their helmets,greaves or other piece of armour to any great extend,whereas all depictions show the cuirass white,like the pteryges.
I'm sorry if finally the cuirass wasn't as impressive as gleaming bronze or iron like illustrators like to fashion,but to me this armour seems as impressive in white leather!
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#62
These are two rather different questions. I have held from the first that leather, probably rawhide, is what we see in white thorax.

Now to say that long rectangular scales, secured only at the top and bottom edge by a row of stitching which can be a narrow band or covered by a wide decorative border, developed independantly in Italy to me would require some proof because it is not a common type of scale and because of the long tradition of exactly the same thing in the near east.

Quote:And there are other examples of similar armour made of leather used by people much closer to the Etruscans than the Asyrians,both geographically and chronologically.

I'm not sure what people you have in mind. Carthaginians have ties to the same tradition as the Assyrians and surely were exposed to this type of scale. The Etruscans themselves are ultimately Anatolian. To me the armor looks like the Assyrian style of scale, perhaps made commonly in a cheaper leather, mated with a T-Y pattern. It need not have come via Carthage, Greeks surely knew of this type of scale, but that route might explain the popularity. I have not seen the archer at Aegina up close, but the pattern looks similar.

[attachment=379]aegina_archer_cl.jpg[/attachment]
Quote:So,friends,i really can't see the likeliness of it being metal,nor insipred by the Asyrian armour.


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Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#63
The arguement i was fighting against was: "The Asyrians used similar armour,thus the Etruscan version must have been metal,iron or bronze"
If the Etruscans coppied Asyrian armour this seems quite unlikely to me,but it is not something that bothers me much. The people i was reffering to in the previous post were the Skythians,who did use leather scale stitched to the top and bottom,like in the leather cuirass i posted above.
We have a fairly detailed idea by now of what this etruscan armour looked like. Much better idea than the typical greek T-Y. Now the question is what matterial,and if you think that metal can confront the matterial i posted in the previous post,then you have to find some supporting evidence,and to me the Asyrians are too far.
And books and magazines certainly have a too biased idea like you see in the photos.
[attachment=380]1_elephant.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=381]2ad.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=382]websitepics041.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=383]img060.jpg[/attachment]
The Aphaia archer(Heracles) does indeed have something similar...the only difference seems to be that in all etruscan sculptures,even the statuettes,there is clearly a thread running all along the rows of scales whereas in Heracles there is no indication of stitching.

Khaire
Giannis


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Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#64
there is a lot writing of "Carthaginian scale/lamellar armor"... but actually I don't know ANY evidence, nor archeological or pictorical, of carthaginian scale armors.

About the question of the leather scales (without doubt more probable than metal ones), I would like to point out that in the Orcus tomb there is a warrior wearing a similar armor that have the "lamellar-like" pattern INSIDE the neck guard: [Image: etrusques_a_069.jpg]

Could we, for the depictions where the "lamellar-pattern" is of the SAME COLOR of the whole armor, suggest an artistic stylistic feature that would remand to a real and functional element existing in OTHER similar armors (e.d. Mars of Todi and Falterona bronze?).
Gioal Canestrelli "Caturix"

- http://www.evropantiqva.org -
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#65
Thanks!! I have made my own linothorax for a Medea's play. I know they are not this color but I liked it, It's been hard to sew with the machine, bit I think it turned out quite good


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#66
That's one nice kit.
Xavier
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#67
(01-08-2017, 12:28 PM)Susana Wrote: Thanks!! I have made my own linothorax for a Medea's play. I know they are not this color but I liked it, It's been hard to sew with the machine, bit I think it turned out quite good

The T-Y corselet came in many colors, not just white.  So you are all good.
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