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Sarmatian/Persian soft kit 1 -100 AD?
#46
Quote:Anyway, what I mean is that the Asian cavalry boots and mocassins were stitched all around the foot, with only two miniature, lozenge-shaped "soles". That is why the Romans claimed the Huns, Avars and Turks were unable to walk.

I doubt that very much. Otherwise they would have stated the same about the Thracians, Celts, Germanians, Dacians and so on. :errr:
Stephan Eitler
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#47
So do I, this is an ethnic cliché of the ancients.
However, do the shoes of the inhabitants of Northern Europe really look like that? I thought they used soles too.
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#48
If they do not wear roman shoes the answer must be yes. I personally do not know of any not-mediteranean shoefind which has more than a simple leathersole before 11th century, they all appear to be turnshoes or cut and bound together from one piece of leather ( unfortunately I don't know the correct term in englisch, we call it Bundschuh).
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#49
If European sandals had soles, then why wouldn't European boots?

However, this is the Sarmatian/Persian soft kit channel. :whistle:

And we have a lot of illustrations of various shoes/boots given by John Conyard on the first page of this thread. Some appear to have soles, others do not. One pair of boots has pointy up-turned toes (like the ones I wear), and another pair has heels. Also, note the great variation in boot-length.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#50
Quote:If European sandals had soles, then why wouldn't European boots?

You have to ask the ancients. Maybe because they had not the same cultural background. Have you any archaeological evidence for boots found in Europe in the relevant periodes with a doubled or multi-layerd soles like we know from roman finds? The boots with soft soles from Achmim-Panopolis, dating to 6th and 7th century, also have upturned toes so what is the argument behind that?

kind regards
Stephan Eitler
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#51
Allan, look at Northern Europe from Halstatt to principate period: one-piece shoes, trousers, tartan cloth, torques, moustaches, more advanced saddle, cart and waggon technology, long swords. Very different from the Mediterranean.
Now where would this different cultural complex come from? IMHO, from Central Asia and Southern Russia.
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#52
I'd agree about the trousers. I don't know enough about most of the other things to comment, but I think one would have to do a lot of groundwork to make such an assertion. The long swords seem to me to be parallel developments -- that the La Tene sword derived from the proto-anthropomorphic Hallstatt dagger, which in turn is descended from the Urnfield sword, while the Steppe longsword I think descends over several phases from the Classical akinakes. One would have to show abutment in space and time to say that either line of descent influenced the other.
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
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#53
I agree with you on the groundwork part, but the La Tène C and D swords are of a rather different type, more like the longswords used on the steppes. This is also the period of Sarmatian expansion towards the west and Celtic expansion towards the east.
By the way, which Thin Lizzy song is that?
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#54
Quote:[quote]Have you any archaeological evidence for boots found in Europe in the relevant periodes with a doubled or multi-layerd soles like we know from roman finds? The boots with soft soles from Achmim-Panopolis, dating to 6th and 7th century, also have upturned toes so what is the argument behind that?

kind regards

Hello, Dain II

Since this is the Sarmatian "Channel," I seldom study European footwear, but non-Mediterranean styles could point to similarities within Indo-Iranian shoes and boots. Confusedmile:

I have no argument concerning upturned toes, a style that has centuries and centuries of "wear" behind it. Confusedilly:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#55
Quote:Allan, look at Northern Europe from Halstatt to principate period: one-piece shoes, trousers, tartan cloth, torques, moustaches, more advanced saddle, cart and waggon technology, long swords. Very different from the Mediterranean.
Now where would this different cultural complex come from? IMHO, from Central Asia and Southern Russia.

Actually, a very good point. There are other likenesses, such as sacred deer, a "protective" bear, a "grail" cauldron, things that are not so obvious as saddles, chariots, and footgear. The Yue-chi tartans found in the Takla Makan have exact duplicates in the Halstatt salt mines, even the Yue-chi (and Wusun) language follows the rules of Celtic. These are not isolated anomalies, but must come from an ancient cultural connection, apparently extending back to Andronovo. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#56
Hello, Dan

I agree that, overall, we see a lengthening of swords that is not culturally related, but rather the product of bronze to iron technology, plus being a product of a rise and refinement of cavalry tactics. Perhaps the only common root is something anciently Indo-European. So, in that sense these seemingly unrelated advancements did stem from a common "ancestor"-- a bronze dagger, perhaps not even arsenical bronze, and perhaps still buried in the "homeland."

And Andronovo-Sintashta would be the "abuttment in space and time" you mentioned. :-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#57
Quote:I agree with you on the groundwork part, but the La Tène C and D swords are of a rather different type, more like the longswords used on the steppes. This is also the period of Sarmatian expansion towards the west and Celtic expansion towards the east.
It would help to know where the longer C and D phase swords were developed. I'd be inclined agree with you if they appeared in areas close to the Sarmatian frontier. However, I still don't see them as so different from earlier La Tene styles that they can't plausibly have also developed independent of outside influence.


Quote:By the way, which Thin Lizzy song is that?
"Fighting My Way Back," Fighting (1975 (Sorry about the ad clip, but it's the best upload I could find.)


Quote:Perhaps the only common root is something anciently Indo-European. So, in that sense these seemingly unrelated advancements did stem from a common "ancestor"-- a bronze dagger, perhaps not even arsenical bronze, and perhaps still buried in the "homeland."

And Andronovo-Sintashta would be the "abuttment in space and time" you mentioned. :-)
Well, certainly Celtic and Iranic cultures both owe very much to the proto-Indo-Europeans... I don't know how long ago the languages are believed to have diverged but it's also plausible that they could have traded aspects of material culture for long after that. However, from what I've seen, the Andronovo-Sintashta edged weapons were merely daggers or large knives -- far from the long swords of the Iron Age.
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
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#58
Quote:Since this is the Sarmatian "Channel," I seldom study European footwear

I didn't know Ukraine isn't Europe. :whistle:
Stephan Eitler
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#59
This isn't worth a thread on its own but seeing this is Sarmatian I might as well post it here. I saw an image in "The World Of The Scythians" by Renate Rolle in which a Russian ethnologist did a sketch of a yurt erected inside a building that the Soviets built near the Aral Sea. I suppose you can "Take the nomad out of the Steppes but can't take the Steppes out of the nomad". Sketch done in 1954

[attachment=7147]functionalyurt.jpg[/attachment]

Regards
Michael Kerr


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Michael Kerr
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#60
Nice yurt. Actually, it's a misnomer. A yurt was like a community of these structures. The true name escapes me, but everyone calls 'em yurts nowadays.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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