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Total War: Attila
#46
(07-12-2015, 05:57 AM)Justin I Wrote:
Quote:
Quote:Just to be clear, when you say "Romans" you mean people from the city of Rome itself, right? I was talking about Italy, but this is even more specific.

I'm talking about Roman citizens. There were no "ethnic Romans" at this time, hadn't been since like the 5th century BC. "Roman" became a superculture.

What about people from Italy specifically? I know most of Stilicho's troops were from the upper Danube and the Rhine, but is there any evidence that people from Italy were still serving at this time?

Quote:Have you read Ian Hughes' book on Stilicho?

That's one of the few I haven't read. Is it worth getting? I do have his book on Belisarius.

SMDH. What's this weird obsession with Italians being "true Romans"? Almost anyone free born anywhere in the empire was a Roman at this period in history. It's not based on some arbitrary geographical region. It didn't matter at this point. Senators and emperors could come from anywhere in the empire. The emperors at the height of the empire Trajan, Antoninus Plus, and Marcus Aurelius were all born in Spain, even though descended from Italian colonists. This isn't even remotely modern Italy. we're talking about. In the south of Italia Greek was the most widely spoken language, not Latin. By the late 4th century ALL free Roman males were citizens for over 175 years since Caracalla proclaimed in the Constitutio Antoniniana in 212. Gaul was a renowned center of Latin learning and produced many famous late Roman writers. Yes, most Romans spoke Latin and or Greek, and their native or regional language where they raised. St. Augustine was a native Punic speaker in addition to being a Latin one. Septimus Severus also. Romanitas was not just about holding citizenship but also speaking and writing Latin and/or Greek, and sharing in a wider culture through higher learning and literature. That's how the late period centralized imperial government as well as the army was staffed by anyone from within the empire with the learning, ability and let's not forget connections could work without any issues except rivalry and ambition. A senator from Spain could and did easily converse with a senator from Syria or a philosopher in Athens. These misconceptions you're getting are ridiculously biased or downright wrong. Stop being intellectually lazy and read any book on the late Roman Empire by Peter Heather, Adrian Goldsworthy, Mommsen, or anything written after 1930. There were plenty of Romans of German tribal descent that thought of themselves and acted as Roman as any other in every sense of the term. They didn't betray other Romans (except for a few exceptions) based on seeing themselves as the "other" or conspired with other ethnic Germans just based on their extraction. The ones in the army generally were very loyal and fought quite well. Those in the higher ranks knew and wrote Latin and or Greek even if they weren't classically educated. Just as anyone from the Egyptian or Thracian provinces. Think of the attitudes of the empire being similar to the United States as far as who is American. Anyone. The xenophobia, racism, and murders that occurred against Romans of German descent such as in the aftermath of Stilicho's execution were brought on by an irrational fear of ALL Germans whipped up by his political opponents. This especially due to Radaigasus's invasion and the invasion of Gaul by the Vandals, Alans (not a German tribe), Suebi as well as Alaric's Goths. There was no "barbarisation" of the culture. Romans and their neighbors had beeN influencing each other's cultures for centuries.
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