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New Bronze hoplite cavalryman?
#1
    Just saw this, and not sure if you have seen it yet:


"Νew archaeological founding , a bronze mounted hoplite (fragment) from Hellenistic Era found in the seabed of Kalimnos Island (today Greece ). It will be displayed at Acropolis Museum between  14 October to 31 of  March (2017).

"Αρματωμένος ανδριάντας Ελληνιστικών χρόνων από τον βυθό της Καλύμνου ..
Έχω ήδη καταλήξει στην τυπολογία του Θώρακα  και επισημάνει τις ιδιαιτερότητες του  ως κατασκευή αλλά η τελική περιγραφή του θα αναρτηθεί μετά από επιτόπια αυτοψία. (καλό θα είναι να ληφθεί σοβαρά από τους Έλληνες Αρχαιολόγους διότι θα είναι η εμπεριστατωμένη άποψη του μοναδικού Αρματοποιού του Ελληνικού Κόσμου)

"Το χάλκινο άγαλμα θα εκτίθεται στο ισόγειο του Μουσείου Ακρόπολης από τις 14 Οκτωβρίου έως τις 31 Μαρτίου 2017.Η έκθεση συμπίπτει με τον επετειακό εορτασμό των 40 χρόνων από την ίδρυση της Εφορείας Εναλίων Αρχαιοτήτων το 1976."
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#2
Is it representing metal or organic cuirass?
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#3
More information about the discovery from Kalymnos :

http://www.academia.edu/12212733/G._Kout...2015_72-81

arrivederci,
Emilio
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#4
how old it is? Technically speaking, bronze cuirass was used by Macedonian cavalry, at least the king's companions would be using it together with other types of armor, plus others did it as well.. there are plenty of sculptures showing Roman Equites in musculatae, so its not something completely rare.. And i would be not that surprised, if all those sculptures where cavalrymen is portrayed naked, he actually had the musculata on...
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#5
(10-14-2016, 03:37 AM)Bryan Wrote: Is it representing metal or organic cuirass?

Impossible to tell.

Very cool find. Looking forward to seeing more pics.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#6
(10-14-2016, 09:16 AM)emilius Wrote: More information about the discovery from Kalymnos :

http://www.academia.edu/12212733/G._Kout...2015_72-81

arrivederci,
Emilio

Thanks very interesting, date is estimated 3rd to 2nd century... Umm the author says its a "Leather" Spolos, my view is as its appears wrapped around the body, I would think its something stiff but flexible and unlikely to be bronze as there are no hindges where you might expect, so could be stiff "Rawhide", "Leather" or stiffened Linen(but would need to be fairly rigid)...

Not written in stone Wink
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#7
Some comments on the rather nice find. Thanks for posting, and the reference to its companion statue Smile

Everything about this statue indicates a date of late 3 rd/2nd century, perhaps even later. The relatively small epomides/shoulder pieces, the thunderbolt emblems - typically Ptolemaic, though not unique to them, the style of 'pteryges', and above all the girdle tied in a 'knot of Hercules'. All these features would later be copied by the Romans.

The girdle with 'knot of Hercules' is indicative of senior rank/General, and it may be that a Hellenistic King is being depicted.( It is CERTAINLY not a 'hoplite'.

As to the material of the armour, I'd agree with Dan that it is impossible to be certain. It may represent a leather 'spolas', but a couple of features cause pause. 'Non-muscled' bronze cuirasses are not unknown, and the depicted nipples are usually found only on Bronze or iron cuirasses. On balance of probability, I'd tend to come down in favour of a bronze or iron cuirass. Hinges would not be visible, because they were normally on the left side, here hidden by the cloak.

For an idea of how the complete statue would have looked, see below. The marble statues ( two different ones) of Marcus Nonius Balbus are from Herculaneum, where he was honoured as a great Benefactor. Note the upraised hand gesture and 'girdle of Hercules'. The heads are different because the 'elder' one looking rather like J. Caesar is actually an 18 C replacement for a missing head. ( for which you'll often see the two statues labelled as Father and Son)

The same pose and almost identical statues exist of Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, with the same hand gesture.....


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
               
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#8
picture in the first post, is it me or i'm seeing things.. that armor looks remarkably close to late 18.century steel breastplates used by Cuirassiers.. no muscle shapes on it, pure functional design without the knowledge of angled plate LOS thickness increase.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#9
The human body doesn't change and there are only a few ways to cover it with armour. The same basic designs pop up again and again all over the world for thousands of years.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#10
I think it is a leather Spolas.  That is not a nipple!  Unless this was Ptolemy's grandmother's armor!  It is a stylized tie-down for the epomide.

What do we think, is that skirt a separate garment? I wonder if they can tell from the statue.
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#11
(11-01-2016, 12:29 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote: I think it is a leather Spolas.  That is not a nipple!  Unless this was Ptolemy's grandmother's armor!  It is a stylized tie-down for the epomide.

What do we think, is that skirt a separate garment? I wonder if they can tell from the statue.

if its leather, why using two leather belts around it? plus, below the lower one, are perforated ornaments. not something you would wanna do to the leather armor i guess..
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#12
(11-01-2016, 12:42 PM)JaM Wrote: if its leather, why using two leather belts around it? plus, below the lower one, are perforated ornaments. not something you would wanna do to the leather armor i guess..

Belts are a plus with the spolas because that tie-down on the left is a weak point.  We see belts sometimes t-ys on much earlier vases.  By cinching the belt you can keep the weight of the armor on your hips rather than hanging from the shoulders.  As to the incisions, if they are not just artistic for the casting, they could represent patterns hammered into the leather.  This is how we generally decorate leather today, but I do not know if the Greeks did so extensively.  By the way, this could be a thick textile tube just as easily, so I don't consider this evidence in that debate.
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#13
(11-01-2016, 12:42 PM)JaM Wrote:
(11-01-2016, 12:29 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote: I think it is a leather Spolas.  That is not a nipple!  Unless this was Ptolemy's grandmother's armor!  It is a stylized tie-down for the epomide.

What do we think, is that skirt a separate garment? I wonder if they can tell from the statue.

if its leather, why using two leather belts around it? plus, below the lower one, are perforated ornaments. not something you would wanna do to the leather armor i guess..

My main reason to think this is not metal cuirass is that there are no hindges or joins on the visible right hand side, a metal one would have to have a joint, otherwise you couldn't open it!... and considering that very fine details are visible it would seem odd not to include it.
The decoration below the belt could be embossed or engraved Leather or Metal.... so it's not proof of anything by itself...

"The belts on the two armored riders serve no practical purpose and have been correctly associated with the “Persian girdle” worn by Alexander the Great (Diodorus, Bibliotheke17.77.5; Plutarch, Alkibiades 51.5). Through portrayals
of the Diadochoi it was adopted by the Romans who used it (cingulum) to indicate that the wearer held an official post."

https://www.academia.edu/12212733/G._Kou...2015_72-81
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#14
(11-01-2016, 01:37 PM)Crispianus Wrote: "The belts on the two armored riders serve no practical purpose and have been correctly associated with the “Persian girdle” 

This is surely not correct and yet another indictment of making such claims without actually wearing one.  I know this because a) the belt I have on my T-Y serves a purpose, and b) we see on vases from the 5thc belts being tied by arming hoplites.
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#15
Paul B wrote:
Quote:"I think it is a leather Spolas.  That is not a nipple!  Unless this was Ptolemy's grandmother's armor!  It is a stylized tie-down for the epomide....."

......and....

"This is surely not correct and yet another indictment of making such claims without actually wearing one.  I know this because a) the belt I have on my T-Y serves a purpose, and b) we see on vases from the 5thc belts being tied by arming hoplites."

Sorry, Paul, but I believe both these statements are incorrect. It is indeed a decorative nipple, described as such:

"there are two rosette-shaped buttons symmetrically placed on the lower part of the chest."

As can be seen, these are actually 'stud' shaped, and solid - in fact nipple shaped, and anatomically correctly placed. You should also not confuse 5 C practices with 3 C ones. These 'epomides' are residual ones, not the practical shoulder protectors of old, and are usually found on bronze cuirasses as decorative elements. You certainly couldn't tie down anything to these 'nipples' ! In fact, where these locations are used for tie-downs the 'nipples' are almost invariably rings, and the ties then passed through and tied off in a bow.

More commonly, the 'epomides' were tied off to rings placed higher up, above the decorative 'nipples' ( which appear on bronze cuirasses, I can't recall off-hand any on other types of body armour) - see Hadrian and Julius Caesar and the Hellenistic panoply from Corfu below.

As to the 'belts', they are in this instance  a single decorative girdle commonly used as a symbol of high rank,  see examples below, and also the other statue I posted previously on Oct 16. They are  tied in a special decorative 'knot of Hercules', and are incidentally a single 'belt/girdle', not two:

"The cuirass is tied at the waist with a cloth belt that crosses at the back to tie an intricate knot at the center front. [Knot of Hercules, or reef knot]. The free ends of this sash go under the belt at different heights forming loops and then fall freely at the sides." 

This type of knot would not secure anything, because it is relatively weak and easily 'capsized'.....

It is nothing like the belt or knots one would use to doubly secure 5 C 'spolades'.....

Note also that the 'epomides' in both these bronze statues do not 'align' vertically with the 'nipple' decorations, so if tied off to these the 'epomides' would be pulled inward....


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
               
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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