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Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Peter Raftos - 06-20-2008
Christian,
You have a point. The evidence agrees with you. I refer to is to a fairly recent study which attests to the craftsmanship of the kranopois -helmet maker - named in Aristophanes Peace ( 1250ff) . ( See How The Greeks got ahead: technological aspects of manufacture of a corinthian type hoplite bronze helmet from Olympia.[url:2oam9ges]http://www.srs.ac.uk/scienceandheritage/presentations/Prag-etal-Olympia2006-final-v2.pdf[/url] In this study a Corinthian helmet was examined using a Synchrotron. The conclusions can be best summed up as:
"It was manufactured out of a single piece of bronze, probably on a rod-anvil, and like all body-armour it was made to measure."
but most importantly in support of your suggestion: "The object was more than likely cast as a ‘skull-cap’, then beaten and heated in an iterative cycle and dressed down to its final thickness and shape to fit the customer’s head."
The other evidence is mainly visual representations. The earliest is a Geometric period statue attributed to the late 8th or early 7th century. He seems to be using a narrow stake / rod anvil possibly with a rounded top.(See Five Bronzes Recently Acquired by the Metropolitan Museum
Gisela M. A. Richter American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1944), pp. 1-9)
The Thaliarchos Painter in the last decades of the 6th century represents a kranopois beating a helmet on a rod anvil. (Thaliarchos Painter, Paris Petit Palais 382). Also a 5th C ceramic example from tha Ashmolean Museum in Oxford seems to be filing or chasing the helmet - he has a block anvil with a flat top.
In 2005 I saw a beautiful stone armourers mold for a Boeotian helmet in the Kunsthistorische Museum in Wien and it had vine tendril pattern incisions in the stone so that after the helmet was finished on the mold the maker could decorate it by hammering silver into these impressions. A similar mold of limestone is also in the Allard Pierson Museum in Amsterdam.
Another article I have not read yet may also cover some of this issue is:
The Sanctuary of Poseidon at Isthmia: Techniques of Metal Manufacture
William Rostoker and Elizabeth R. Gebhard Hesperia, Vol. 49, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1980), pp. 347-363 Crumpled bronze sheet, broken helmet nasals and scrap bronze castings, risers and drippings infer a bronze foundry was present near the Sanctuary of Poseidon at Isthmia.
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - PMBardunias - 06-20-2008
Quote:Find me the scientific paper that say this! Sources??????
That will be quite easy since most "scientific papers" well into the middle of the last century were rediculously racially biased and subject to "Arianism" and "Nordicism". They, the unfortunatley named Coon for example, will tell you that Spartans were tall and blond and that modern greeks are cross-bred mongrels. I believe none of this, though I am a cross-bred mongrel.
That said there are famous blondes and fair-haired individuals from Sparta- Alcman's blond singer (parsenikan) for example. As far as I recall Helen is never called Blond by Homer, but the tradition emerges later (Sappho?). Menelaos of Sparta happened to be blond or red-haired, though his own brother was not. I think it was the connection to Sparta that set his hair color in literature and not his genes.
This does not indicate some connection with Nordic supermen, if there was a connection with fair hair and Sparta it probably resulted from simple regional variation due to isolation. As a nail in the coffin to the great Nordic Dorians, I'll note that Hercules, the archetipic Doric Hero, was very dark and hook-nosed.
Evidence from Greek statuary would place blonds in Greece at something less that 4-7%- close to the modern incidence of blonds in Greece. (Day, J.V., 2000, Indo-European Origins: the Anthropological Evidence, Institute for the Study of Man, Washington D.C.). Since most of this statuary is Athenian, I think it is fair to say it reflects the Athenian Average- quite low. In fact there is evidence that natural blondes darkened their eyebrows (Athenaeus) and hair (Menander).
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-20-2008
"Blond" in Greece are more than 4-7% today. The thing is...a North European would not call them blond,while we here in Greece do
It doean't really matter all that much.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - PMBardunias - 06-20-2008
Quote:I this this suff of greek look should be put aside for the sake of Reenactment.
I agree completely. The question was which of the Greeks would be best portrayed with a lighter complexion. It is my impression that, rightly or wrongly, the ancients thought Spartans were lighter haired- like a caracature or a steriotype.
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - rogue_artist - 06-20-2008
Interesting stuff. Ive been weighing my options. Unfortunately, the only book I own really only goes into Sparta and Athens. It doesn't tell me anything about any of the other cities or people.
But truth be told, what is said of Sparta shows a type of honor I really admire. Even after they beat Athens in the Peloponnesian war, they didnt slaughter everyone. They seemed pretty even-handed. So I'm pretty happy with the idea of doing Spartan
The helmet thing: It just seems so odd that a society of such amazingly skilled artists, craftsman and foundries would cast life-like bronze statues.... but not helmets, which were considered the most important piece of a soldiers equipment. Please see the picture below....
![[Image: helmet-maker_w_knife.jpg]](http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u178/tk0580/ancients/helmet-maker_w_knife.jpg)
So here we have a guy with knives.... knives wont make a helmet out of a single sheet of bronze like it states. That man is not making a bronze helmet.
Could he be cutting out the eye-holes and vent? I don't know, ginsu wasnt invented back then.
Could he be carving the scroll-work on the crown? eehhhhh... maybe. Thats gotta be one helluva knife! Plus, he is holding the helmet in his hand... so its NOT heated.
My guess? He is SCULPTING a helmet out of clay or wax. Now, this helmet might only be for mounting atop a statue. But maybe, *maybe* he is sculpting one to be cast for the lost-wax method. No one knows for sure.
But I can tell you from practical experience that if you use the lost-wax method, you can ensure the wall-thickness of the project is exactly what you want it to be, where you want.
Which raises ANOTHER question: if it is lost-wax method made, is the crown an increased thickness? Or just moved away from the skull for more air like assumed?
*IF* it is increased thickness, that would lend to a MUCH stronger crown area. Which give credence to those stories of 'swords shattering upon impact'!
Just something to mull over.
And here is the preliminary sketch Ive made...
![[Image: my_spartan_prelim_01.jpg]](http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u178/tk0580/ancients/my_spartan_prelim_01.jpg)
I don't have good reference on the sandals.
Can the crest go front-to-back, or does it have to go side-to-side (Im not a fan of the side-to-side look)
Does the crest need to be mounted directly to the crown? Or can it be raised like I have it?
Is the cuirass affixed by straps on the sides like I have it?
Is the shield completely uniform for every hoplite? If it is, what else goes on it but the Lambda?
Since I'm an artist, I'm into little details..... since the above vase painting has some bit of decoration, I don't suppose a little bit on mine would be out of the question..... right?
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - rogue_artist - 06-20-2008
Now, page 47 of Warfare in the Classical World has the below illustration:
![[Image: spartan_illus.jpg]](http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u178/tk0580/ancients/spartan_illus.jpg)
and its text:
![[Image: spartan_illus_text.jpg]](http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u178/tk0580/ancients/spartan_illus_text.jpg)
I *love* this illustration! Is it also a good basis to go off of? Is the blued helmet common, rare, or fantasy?
And one last question on the shield: Ive read it "covers from chin to ankles" and was known to "knock against the ankles while walking". Now is that only the figure 8 shield or should the above shield be that big too?
Again, thanks everyone! I hope to make you proud with my kit once its all assembled!!
-Jason
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Na Saighdiuir - 06-21-2008
Ok Jason ill do my best to give you some answers.Firstly the aspis was the vital ingredient of any hoplite,the one essential piece of gear.Each one helped to form the shieldwall,if you like,of the phalanx and generally protected the man to your left as well.I mean there are stories of hoplites fighting in the nude behind their aspis.
The crests to the best of my knowledge can be raised but dont hold me to it.Generally the side to side look was reserved for generals etc and the front to back was for the ordinary hoplite.As for the shield the spartans went with the lambda(again not 100% here)but other city states allowed personal choice,a bull being common and one fellow even opting for a fly!
Hope this half answers some of your queries!!
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - hoplite14gr - 06-21-2008
For shield devices please see appropriate thread "Greek Shield Emblems".
Archaic helmets 750 to 550 had increase thickness in the front.
Not known how they did it. Cheek pieces had sculpted designs.
A pilos with sculpted olive wraith survives in Antkensammelung.
Corinthian helmets in the Metropolitan Museum of Art have rich engravings.
A high crest signifies status. Please check again appropriate thread.
Kind regards
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-22-2008
OK,just we have to mention that all of them have some (minor or important) inaccuraces,that since Jason is an artist,would notice them. It's too late an houre,and pointless to go through each one of them right now. If you have any questions on the above excellent post by Gioi...
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - rogue_artist - 06-30-2008
thanks so much! Ill get to going through them very soon.
I just got back from a gaming convention where I had a booth in the art show. I got the opportunity to speak with a lot of my favorite publishing companies, So hopefully Ill be very busy (or rather, busier) very soon!
-Jason
Spartan Hoplite - Paullus Scipio - 07-01-2008
Jason wrote:
Quote:I *love* this illustration! Is it also a good basis to go off of? Is the blued helmet common, rare, or fantasy?The helmet, partially finished in black is taken from a greek pot, and is authentic - many depictions show multi-coloured helmets, including a Corinthian with top part of the bowl done checkered!
And one last question on the shield: Ive read it "covers from chin to ankles" and was known to "knock against the ankles while walking". Now is that only the figure 8 shield or should the above shield be that big too?
The Greek Aspides, from various partial remains found, varied in diameter between about 80cm(32 inches) and 100 cm( 39 inches)...the crucial measurement was the owner's forearm....( see the way they were held).
The famous Spartan 'Lambda'( capital 'L' for' Lakedaemon'...an upside down 'V' in Greek) appears to have been introduced around 420 BC with the issue of state equipment to newly freed helots as Hoplite soldiers serving abroad, but quickly became a universal shield design.....prior to that, and at the time of the Persian Wars, Spartans seem to have had individual shield blazons like everyone else.
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - hoplite14gr - 07-01-2008
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=6019
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ld+devices
Plutrch mentions the anecdote of the life sized fly but in Staatliche antiken Sammenlung there a Laconian hoplite on apot who carries the rooster Amyklae and a shamrock that might be personal emblem or good luck charm
Kind regards
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-01-2008
There are varying pigmentations in my family, of Greek decent....so it's not really a great indicator of place of origin....
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - Na Saighdiuir - 07-03-2008
The famous Spartan 'Lambda'( capital 'L' for' Lakedaemon'...an upside down 'V' in Greek) appears to have been introduced around 420 BC with the issue of state equipment to newly freed helots as Hoplite soldiers serving abroad, but quickly became a universal shield design.....prior to that, and at the time of the Persian Wars, Spartans seem to have had individual shield blazons like everyone else
Whoa i didnt know that!!Thanks Paullus.By the way i love that Connolly picture Comerus!!
hock:
Re: Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite" - hoplite14gr - 07-03-2008
Monograms on Shields are dated from 420 B.C. and the dating is base on Photios Epitomi that uses as a source the poet Eupolis.
Though pottery dated from 450 B.C shows an Athenian reading himself from hoplitodromy sporting the "A" on a shield.
Spartans were probably the first to use "regimental" emblems.
Certain emblems had similarities like the Thespian emblem that was similar to the Vravronians (Athens) and led to blunder combat in Delion.
Kind regards