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+--- Thread: The Bull Standard (/showthread.php?tid=21370)
The Bull Standard - D B Campbell - 10-03-2012
Quote:But which sign of the zodiac does a wolf represent?Cichorius identified it as a ram. (Specifically, First Minervia's ram.)
Quote:I wonder whether this idea that the 'totem' animal represents an astrological sign and can therefore be used to identify the founder might be a bit off...Most of them seem to work ... with a little bit of bending the rules!
The Bull Standard - PhilusEstilius - 10-03-2012
The animal shown on the picture of the TC that Nathan has given I would say is a Bear and not a wolf.
The Bull Standard - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 10-03-2012
The animal's tail is too long for a ram or bear. Looks more like a wolf to me.
[attachment=5331]IMG_0607.JPG[/attachment]
The Bull Standard - Epictetus - 10-03-2012
Quote:As i mentioned, the 4 legions had an animal symbol each. I think it was related to tribal symbols in early kingdom/Republican period.
Did the tribes have symbols as such? I've looked through T.J. Cornell's The Beginnings of Rome and can't find anything besides the names of the tribes and a discussion of the people or places they were named from.
The Bull Standard - Titus Manlius Verus - 10-03-2012
Quote:The animal's tail is too long for a ram or bear. Looks more like a wolf to me.
I would agree. Legio VI Feretta's symbol was that of the wolf and twins, I believe (although they did not take part in Trajan's Dacian wars).
The Bull Standard - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-03-2012
Ferrata's was the wolf and twins, but they were stationed in Palestine and Syria, so they only took place in the Parthian Campaigns.
To me it looks more like a horse than a wolf.
[attachment=5335]Column.jpg[/attachment]
The Bull Standard - Nathan Ross - 10-03-2012
Quote:Most of them seem to work ... with a little bit of bending the rules!
Really?
mile: What about the boar? ... or the dolphin?Quote:The animal shown... I would say is a Bear and not a wolf.
Quote:Looks more like a wolf to me.
Quote:To me it looks more like a horse
I think it looks like a long-legged otter more than anything.
mile: Quote:Ferrata's was the wolf and twins, but they were stationed in Palestine and Syria, so they only took place in the Parthian Campaigns.
Actually there was at least a vexillation of VI Ferrata in the Dacian war (discussion here)- but probably not the whole legion so no eagle or other animals...
There looks like another 'totem' standard on the Column, but with the 'animal' removed for some reason. Again, carried beside the eagle by a bare-headed man:
![[Image: Standards.jpg]](http://www.scran.ac.uk/packs/exhibitions/learning_materials/webs/56/Images/Trajcol/Standards.jpg)
The Bull Standard - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-03-2012
Animal could have been made of Bronze or metal, and stripped later by a peasant.
The Bull Standard - Titus Manlius Verus - 10-03-2012
Quote:To me it looks more like a horse than a wolf.
If so, that's the oddest looking horse I've ever seen. :whistle:
It very well could be a weathered bull.
I also agree that the animal emblem on that section of the column was propibally looted. The Romans didn't carry around headless banners. TC was partially sheathed in metal, correct?
The Bull Standard - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-03-2012
Quote:Magister Militum Flavius Aetius post=321987 Wrote:To me it looks more like a horse than a wolf.
If so, that's the oddest looking horse I've ever seen. :whistle:
It very well could be a weathered bull.
I also agree that the animal emblem on that section of the column was propibally looted. The Romans didn't carry around headless banners. TC was partially sheathed in metal, correct?
A Bull is Likely - the V Macedonica was right on the Danube Frontier in Moesia.
The Bull Standard - caiusbeerquitius - 10-04-2012
In regard of the tail and head form and pose it most probably is a ram, certainly not a bull or horse... Don´t look at the actual animals, look at how they are depicted in Roman art, if you want a comparison...
The Bull Standard - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 10-04-2012
Quote:In regard of the tail and head form and pose it most probably is a ram, certainly not a bull or horse... Don´t look at the actual animals, look at how they are depicted in Roman art, if you want a comparison...
Good point—plate XXXVIII depicts a ram with a long tail:
[attachment=5336]ram.JPG[/attachment]
Here are some more for comparison (produced by a quick Google search):
http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/images/Phrixus%20etruscan%20.JPG
http://www.fotothing.com/photos/6a9/6a9c58620dd63c34d52ad7b54d4839e4.jpg
The Bull Standard - D B Campbell - 10-04-2012
Quote:In regard of the tail and head form and pose it most probably is a ram, ...I don't have Cichorius' text to hand, but I'm sure he had a good reason for saying that it was a ram.
The Bull Standard - Albertomv - 10-04-2012
I think that Marius replaced the older standards: minotaur, wolf, boar and bull by the eagle.
I always think that capricorns, bulls, rams, lions,..., were shield emblems and not properly standards... :???:
Agree with caiusbeerquitius it probably resembles a ram
The Bull Standard - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-04-2012
As i said, these were used by the original Legions raised, their orginal use I can only speculate on.