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+--- Thread: Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE (/showthread.php?tid=21470)
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Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - john m roberts - 10-27-2012
Quote:Author of the book “Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier” from Marius to Commodus Raffaele Dámato & Graham Sumner, described this bronze segmentata from NOVAE as a used in legio I Italica in Flavian period .
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![[Image: bronzeloricasegmentataf.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/203/bronzeloricasegmentataf.jpg/)
The appearance of an apulo-corinthian helmet with a segmentata makes this relief odd. The A-C helmet appears in art elsewhere in this period, but usually in conjunction with the musculata.
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-27-2012
Odd, maybe! But, it is there....
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Caballo - 10-27-2012
"Don't get too excited. It's probably manica.
Mike Bishop"
Apart from those of us manica-geeks who get excited about manica finds , of course..... :woot:
Cheers
Paul
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Agricola - 10-27-2012
I think that Dr. D'Amato seems to be saying is that because the soldier depicted is wearing a type of Corinthian helmet (most probably made of Bronze) then the armour would have been made to match. Personally there's no reason why a soldier couldn't have a bronze helmet and some iron armour, or maybe the Corinthian he seems to be wearing is also made out of iron.
Unless samples are taken that show that this mural was painted then it's hard to make out what metal is being represented. Even then it's worth taking in the idea that the sculptor wasn't necessarily trying to create an wholly accurate depiction of a soldier, or even if it is painted, as the Alexander sarcophagus shows, sometimes unrealistic and gaudy colours could be used (such as bright blue for a helmet etc).
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Graham Sumner - 10-27-2012
Mike Bishop wrote:
Okay, there are a number of non-sequiturs hopping about like agitated fleas here. First, why does Dr D'Amato say the Praetorians wore copper-alloy segmental armour? There is no published archaeological evidence (in the form of finds of that armour in a Praetorian context) I am aware of to support that assertion. Second, there is nothing about that particular sculpture (or any other come to that) that dictates that the depicted armour is of copper alloy. The figure is quite clearly derivative (the rounded ends to plates and the chunky functionless rivets make that clear), probably based on Trajan's Column and its ilk. His assertion that copper-alloy armour is shown on the figure then derives from his statement that the Guard wore it (which as we have seen, is unproven).
There is no convincing evidence that those particular pieces of armour from Svishtov-Novae were body armour (so-called lorica segmentata) rather than armguard. There are plenty of examples of copper-alloy manica (the Till Steincheshof example being only the most recent) but no major indisputable components of segmentata made of copper-alloy plate. There are also plenty of examples of segmentata from Novae of the conventional type (copper-alloy fittings on steel plates).
Hello Mike
I am just wondering if the illustrated figure (above) of a soldier in a lorica segmentata with a Corinthian helmet may have derived from the same source as the painting in Nero's Golden House described as 'Hector'?
(For those not familiar with the image it appears to show a soldier in Corinthian helmet but possibly with a lorica segmentata type armour that looks like parts could be in bronze. an illustration is also in the book by D,Amato page 94)
As you mention in your own book on the LS this could mean the lorica segmentata may have had earlier Hellenistic origins. However whatever that source was may never be known.
While I can accept the possibility that someone like Nero could dress his guards pretty much how he liked, I find it harder to believe that a painting of a hero like 'Hector' would be based on an ordinary Guardsman as Dr D'Amato believed, no matter how fancy his equipment may have been.
Although the excavator of the finds from Novae seems to think they were from shoulder plates etc... I never thought myself that there were enough pieces to make up anything other than parts of an armguard.
While a bronze or gold coloured lorica segmentata may have immense appeal to modern eyes, (it certainly made for a good illustration in Roman Military Clothing 1) as we all know the Romans tendered to silver every bit of equipment in sight!
Graham.
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-27-2012
Was it not Nero who made up a Phalanx armed with pikes? Perhaps that was a far as his Hellenistic
phalanx went...Apullo-Corinthians and pikes? The rest may have been sensible Roman equipment?
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Graham Sumner - 10-27-2012
Hello Byron
I think you are thinking of the 16,000 troops Caracalla converted into Macedonian Phalangites. The equipment is mentioned by Cassius Dio and is different to what is illustrated here.
Graham.
Bronze Lorica Segmentata from NOVAE - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-27-2012
Got me there! :oops:
Yes indeed, that makes this a very interesting image! :-)