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Re: Sassanian rider - Proximus - 08-29-2009
Hello,
Concerning your very first drawing, it is a good job ! Congratulations ! I have two things to say :
1 : the sword seems too broad to me. As you had seen in the link given before : ( http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/virtual_m ... alwork.htm ) the sword are less broad than in your drawing, but there are not a lot archeological pieces so it is difficult to know exactly what they look like.
2 : the scene is strange to me : bow with arrow in one hand and sword in the other ? It is obvious this character is hunting, but you can only use one weapon in the same time, it seems. The bow look a little too big to my eyes, too.
But your work is great ! A big big thanks to you, that's a period and a time I like to explore and not a lot of people have the idea to illustrate it !
Oh, and Invasio Barbarorum is a very great mod with a lot of good shaped units, but the "tone" seems to "toon-like" to me. I would like some people do the same as Europa Barbarorum but for the Sassanian period ! Would be great ! But IB is the only mod I played untill conquerring the entire world ! Savaran are just too powerfull and units are 200 men if I remember, against 100 men per units for romani clibanii if my mind don't tricks me.
Lots of days (weeks !) of pleasure ! They are working on a Invasio barbarorum II mod for Medieval II Total War, better engine... But they need a lot of time !
But I stop here, I think I talked too mutch about those games in a thread where it is not the main topic
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-10-2009
hello Proximus,
thanks for your interest and tour compliments
ad. 1
sword may be too broad - well, I consulted MAsia's sassanian Swords and Daggers. She lists many plates and relieves were blades were wide eg a plate - Shapur slaying a stag - where king's sword is rather broad http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/S ... _Plate.jpg
the 'pistol' grip is straight from the plates http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/S ... plate2.jpg
the rest is imagination
ad.2
The scene is my take on a preparatory drawing done by Mr Kaveh Farrokh for Mr Angus Mcbride (lamentably already in the Elysian Fields) so he could painted one of the plates for Kaveh's Sassanian Elite Cavalry (Osprey) http://www.payvand.com/news/07/mar/Elite-Cavalry.jpg
Probably I should have painted a sword strap as to give this impression that he can lift or drop his sword anytime while retaining his bow a his primary offensive weapon (they did no have cases for a strung bow like the Scythians or Pazyryk Saka).
Large bows appear in the Sargat culture of Southern Siberia 4-3rd c BCE (along with the smaller and shorter, Scythina/Saka type), the Pazyryk culture of 3-2ndc BCE, so some of this development in the archery equipment must have trickled down to the Dahae/Parthian and later Sassanian kingdoms - especially their eastern 'satrapies', also while fighting against the White Huns or the Hephthalites http://www.silk-road.com/artl/heph.shtml http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html I daresay Sassanids must have addopted some of the better weaponry already possessed by their enemy.
as per large bows in the Sassanid art - http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/S ... _plate.jpg
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/S ... rPlate.jpg
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/S ... useum1.jpg
!Invasio Barbarorum is great! I will rejoice comming of Invasio barbarorum II - I do have Medieval War II and Kingdoms (and several Mods written for that edition of Total War) - it is one way of introducing my 8 year old son to history, economics, warfare, geography (trying to keep him from Playstations etc)
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 09-12-2009
Quote:hello Proximus,
!Invasio Barbarorum is great! I will rejoice comming of Invasio barbarorum II - I do have Medieval War II and Kingdoms (and several Mods written for that edition of Total War) - it is one way of introducing my 8 year old son to history, economics, warfare, geography (trying to keep him from Playstations etc)
Thank you very much. I will pass your compliments to the other team members
FYI your artworks are both a great source and shining example for my modelling. You will may recognize some designs
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-17-2009
Andreas,
thanks a lot for your compliments -
...bows, horses, armour etc - I have been looking at some Russian articles and websites - one place is just striking - War history of Siberia - where you can find reconstructions of so called Sargat culture from South Siberia http://history.novosibdom.ru/node/43 The Sargat culture is where some heavy armor and weaponry was found in the kurgans, and perhaps somewhere in the 5th century BCE cataphract was born.
and here at the bottom of the page you can find another Sargat warrior- cataphract reconstructed http://history.novosibdom.ru/node/54
and here reconstruction and explanation of sarmato-hunnic bows construction - http://history.novosibdom.ru/?q=node/45 and warriors of various grups, from Sarmatians to Hunns (second page) .
these images are from a book published in Russia under the title - ?????? ? ???????. ????????? ?????????? ?? ????????? ???? ?? ????????????? (Weapons and armor. Siberian weaponry from Stone Age until the Medieval period) ( 2003) writtten by ?.?. ????????
tbc
ps
please find attached one of digital images I have been working on
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 09-17-2009
Dario,
an excellent artwork.
I wonder what that rider is. Can it be a Parthian Cataphract, ca. 53 BC (Time of Battle of Carrhae)?
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-18-2009
Quote:Dario,Andreas,
an excellent artwork.
I wonder what that rider is. Can it be a Parthian Cataphract, ca. 53 BC (Time of Battle of Carrhae)?
thanks again for your kind comments -
In fact this sketch is supposed to be a Parthian cataphract when it is all done and finished, I think I am going to have several versions, including the battle of Carrhae.
Find attached a concept drawing for a late Sassanian
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 09-21-2009
You artists ever say "sketch" to something like that
BTW Something I have been wondering about is the design of Sassanian cavalry facemasks. AFAIK no facemask has been discovered so far.
What do you about the design, were they more abstract, more "Roman" style, with or without beards?
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-23-2009
hey Andreas,
thanks again...
Ancient writers talked about these helmets - Cassius Dio and Heliodorus, Ammianus Marcellinus etc- but they have not survived
- we do have Roman ones and the reconstruction perhaps should be based on reason and some knowledge of Perisan art of the period - however I have seen some Sarmatian helmets from Kuban area excavations and they have ram's horns sculpted on them, and then there are Kushan helmets with ram's horns etc, and then there were Hephtalites influences on the Sassanid arms and armor and clothing (eg kaftans ) 5-6th centuries - and then later steppe e.g Chazar helmets with face masks - so one has to carefully use one's imagination
. On the other hand the mask could have ranged from very Roman-Greek like, especially after the big victories and enslavement of many Graeco-Roman artisans, to more abstract, perhaps zoomorphic and influenced by the steppe world, if any.
some other sketch in need of finishing
Re: Sassanian rider - pzachu69 - 09-24-2009
Witam kolege (hi),
nice sketches - frankly cannot wait for the book with your "persian' artwork that is supposed to be published by Inforteditions in Poland, soon I hope?
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-25-2009
Quote:Witam kolege (hi),Czolem,
nice sketches - frankly cannot wait for the book with your "persian' artwork that is supposed to be published by Inforteditions in Poland, soon I hope?
thanks - dzieki
unfortunately I have no idea, nor I have any more clues if this book by Mr Wozniak ever be published, considering the financial crisis in the publishing industry in Poland. The book has been on the future/intended publications list since 2007 I think http://ulisses.livenet.pl/infort/zapowiedzi.html
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 09-28-2009
I love your sketches
Especially the torso armour is interesting. Never seen something like that before. What is the source? Was something like that found?
Given the very feudal structure of the Sassanian realm I believe there had to be a very wide variety of
weapons, body armour, helmets and they were very influenced by foreign powers. In the wand drawning of Panjakent some late armored Sughdian Cavalry are displayed.
It seems that one or two wear a facemask. So I think given the near influence of the Sassanians even some of the late Savaran units might have worn such mask.
These helmets with ram rods are especially interesting
I remember reading in Ammianus Marcellinus that Shapur II wore such a helmet when the sassanian invaded Roman territory in late 350ies.
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 09-28-2009
Ushta Ve,
The source is Tabg-e-Sarvak /tang-i Sarvak relief and the helmet from Firuzabad , and this was done based on my friend Patryk Skupniewicz reconstruction sketch - although he could have had scale collar instead of 'mail coif' - in total the Tang-e sarvak image is fascinating and in my opinion deserves at least some attempts at reconstructing it in full glory - especially the horse armor, large narrow quivers full ofarrows with their point up, - in short a fully armored kontophoroi with a kontos at slow gallop perhaps
The ram headed helmet was used by the Kushans, very typical of their steppe traditions, and when Sassanians took over the Kushans then such helmet, symbol of power and mythical prowess perhaps, became part of the shah-i-shah outfit - in sink with their ancient believes etc.. Looking at the Pazyryk horse masks, and Pazyrk, Ukok, Issyk (Gold Man) headgear finds etc the early Parthian and Kushan 'knights' could have worn ceremonial leather/felt helmets with images of stagg, ram, panther/tiger made out of gold, silver or electrum, or carved from wood and wrapped in gold foil -
I daresay that Pandjikent murals seems to show both open helmets and masked helmets - perhaps one day full glory of Pandjikent will be shown at the West, it is always a question of money, the same with the old Parthian capital at Nissa and the palaces and acropolises over there.. BY the way I love Pandjikent horses, especially splendid and powerful warhorses of Rustam...
Re: Sassanian rider - Roxofarnes - 10-20-2009
Hello,
1 : the sword seems too broad to me. As you had seen in the link given before : ( http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/virtual_m ... alwork.htm ) the sword are less broad than in your drawing, but there are not a lot archeological pieces so it is difficult to know exactly what they look like.
There are relatively broad swords depicted in Sasanian art.
2 : the scene is strange to me : bow with arrow in one hand and sword in the other ? It is obvious this character is hunting, but you can only use one weapon in the same time, it seems.
On one of the Tang e Sarvak friezes (late Parthian) there is a rider holding a bow in left hand and slashing the bear with the sword held in right hand. On Hephtalite bowl from British Museum there is another mounted hunter holding a bow and stabbing lion with sword. Yet another Sasanian depiction show rider using lariat while having the bow hun on the shoulder.
Of course anyone who read Nicolle's study on Sasanian armies remembers bow hung by the neck but this is based on single piece of iconography while the odd (as you say) position of Dario's rider is based on three 8)
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 10-20-2009
Patryk,
welcome to the forum
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 10-28-2009
Did the Savaran use plumes for their helmets?