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+--- Thread: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? (/showthread.php?tid=9125)
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - Berbescu - 01-23-2008
Quote:Yes, I second that it is used like a scythe.
The falx is neither a scythe nor is it derived from the scythe. It is sometimes called a "battle scythe" because of it's appearance. It is not a scythe and can't be used like one (unless somehow it is bent and you are fighting smurfs), and it's form is very different from a scythe. It is like saying that a baseball bat is derived from a mace and the baseball is like the enemy's head. It's similar in appearance but not same origin or usage.
Quote:I have not used a reproduction falx though I have one ordered, but I have used a kuhkri for chopping work and it cuts wonderfully.
I wouldn't use a falx for cutting wood. It will cut a few centimeters into the wood if you swing hard but you will take forever to cut down a normal tree, and you will probably ruin your falx.
Ioan
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - Berbescu - 01-23-2008
Quote:My opinion is that falx was developed from shorter "sica",
I think most archaeologists would disagree with you. They are different. Particularly the handle.
Quote:and was special designed to fight against romans, more exactly to breake the legions shield wall, and create gaps in roman lines, beeing the dacian answher to roman tactics and weapons, before roman themselves readapt to Falx.
It is believed that this is the tactic used for the falx (not for the sica). But it is unlikely that these weapons were created as an answer to Roman tactics. They used both of these weapons before the Romans came.
Quote:Its very posible that, beside this two kind of original recurved weapons ( sica and falx ) to exist even a kind of polearm type, all forming a family of weapons specifically to Dacians,
What is your reference for the pole arme version of the falx? You are referring to the rhomphaia? There was not found one in Dacian area.
Ioan
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - PMBardunias - 01-23-2008
Is there any connection between the blade of the falx and the blades of agricultural scythes? It was common practice throughout eastern europe into the modern era to simply put your scythe blade on pole and join the fight.
Weapons like these were emblematic of the Polish insurrections of the mid 19th century. Could this reflect a survival of the falx tradition?
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - lup_alb - 01-24-2008
There are some examples of scythe-like polearms in medieval Transylvania and Also in Valachia and Moldavia. Also peasant levy in the medieval times used agricultural scythes mounted on long shafts as a weapon against cavalry. But there is no evidence of this beeing linked to the falx.
As a peasant levy you have only 4 real choices of effective weapons available at hand:
- axe
- scythe
- club (sometimes with spikes)
- bow
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - MeinPanzer - 01-24-2008
Quote:I know this one. What is "original source"? You mean the bibliographic reference where the picture comes from? Or you mean where exactly was this falx found?
I found this in an old article discussing the identities of the various barbarian figures on the Adamklissi monument, and it mentioned it only tangentially with a reference to the original publication. I have not yet been able to get a hold of that original publication, but I will be able to soon.
Quote:This is one for 2 hands. There are other examples of falx for 1 hand usage (falx, not sica). There are only a few falxes found. Less than 10. And some of them maybe are modern forgeries because the provenance is not known or suspicious. Also, all of them were found in southern Transylvania. In the rest of the Dacian area, are found normal swords.
Can you provide me with some information on some other actual examples of falxes found? Bibliographical references would be ideal.
Falx blades - sitalkes - 01-24-2008
Hi, there are several falx blades depicted in "I Daci" (the catalogue of a Romanian exhibition in Florence) items 679, 460-462, lengths 22.5, 35, 30, and 24.4 cm respectively. I still have not been able to contact anybody in Romania about my research project, but I will still try to get permission to take photos of these (and other) blades when I get to Bucharest
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - diegis - 01-24-2008
Quote:Well, first, i think is developed from sica because of blade, not of handle. Both are recurved blades, sharped inside. Ofcourse, falx beeing a biger blade, need a bigger handle, for two hands. About the existance of a kind of polearm inspired by the same blade design ( not any conection with romphaia, who was a big sword too, but used in another manner, i believe ), you can see photos even on this topic, with a kind of huge recurved spear heads, resembling somehow the images from Adamclisi. This is why i believe that was some 3 kind of blades, shorter "sica", used in usual combo with a shield ( dacians used too right swords, as celtic type, or even roman gladius / spatha, thus not as bigger extend ), a bigger sword , "falx" ( who can be used somehow as a schyte / sickle, to cut the legs of enemy, or with upper hits, against heads, as well, or hook type hits ), and that kind of polearm, with a bigger handle ( like on for spears ), but with a shorter blade on top.diegis:3hxua4ak Wrote:My opinion is that falx was developed from shorter "sica",
I think most archaeologists would disagree with you. They are different. Particularly the handle.
Quote:and was special designed to fight against romans, more exactly to breake the legions shield wall, and create gaps in roman lines, beeing the dacian answher to roman tactics and weapons, before roman themselves readapt to Falx.
It is believed that this is the tactic used for the falx (not for the sica). But it is unlikely that these weapons were created as an answer to Roman tactics. They used both of these weapons before the Romans came.
Quote:Its very posible that, beside this two kind of original recurved weapons ( sica and falx ) to exist even a kind of polearm type, all forming a family of weapons specifically to Dacians,
What is your reference for the pole arme version of the falx? You are referring to the rhomphaia? There was not found one in Dacian area.
Ioan
Re: Falx blades - MeinPanzer - 01-24-2008
Quote:Hi, there are several falx blades depicted in "I Daci" (the catalogue of a Romanian exhibition in Florence) items 679, 460-462, lengths 22.5, 35, 30, and 24.4 cm respectively. I still have not been able to contact anybody in Romania about my research project, but I will still try to get permission to take photos of these (and other) blades when I get to Bucharest
Surely these are sicae, and not falxes (except for the Item 94, which is an akinakes, and item 462, which is a spearhead of some sort)? My understanding is that the falx was the name of only the large weapon wielded two-handed, in the same way that the rhomphaia was distinguished by its large size.
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - Berbescu - 01-24-2008
Here are some pictures of Dacian bladed arms and equipment. They are from the book "Civilizatia Fierului la Dacia. sec. II i.e.n. - I e.n." by Ioan Glodariu and Eugen Iaroslavischi. Publisher: Editura Dacia, Cluj-Napoca, 1979. 265 pages.
Figure 32. Dacian scythes.
Figure 33. Dacian sickles.
Figure 66. Dacian knives. These are not necessarily weapons. These are for hunting, kitchen, farming, etc.
Figure 71. Dacian swords.
Figure 72. Dacian knife weapons.
In figure 72, items 6-9 are sicas, item 4 is a dagger, and items 1, 2, 3 & 5 are curved knives.
The scythe and sickle are very different from the falx (and sica). All these things have curved blades with a sharp inner edge, but this is also true of weapons and tools throughout the world. Only a curved edge is not enough to say that one is developed from the other. Their use and form are different.
Ioan
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - Berbescu - 01-24-2008
Quote: Well, first, i think is developed from sica because of blade, not of handle. Both are recurved blades, sharped inside.
Just the fact that they have a curved edge is not enough to draw a conclusion that the falx is developed from the sica. This is just one characteristic of these weapons. There are many curved weapons (with a blade on the concave edge). It's a different design.
Have you seen an intermediary form between the sica and the falx that pre-dates the Daco-Roman wars? In what museum is it?
Quote:Ofcourse, falx beeing a biger blade, need a bigger handle, for two hands. About the existance of a kind of polearm inspired by the same blade design ( not any conection with romphaia, who was a big sword too, but used in another manner, i believe ), you can see photos even on this topic, with a kind of huge recurved spear heads, resembling somehow the images from Adamclisi.
Where are the photos?
Quote:This is why i believe that was some 3 kind of blades, shorter "sica", used in usual combo with a shield ( dacians used too right swords, as celtic type, or even roman gladius / spatha, thus not as bigger extend ), a bigger sword , "falx" ( who can be used somehow as a schyte / sickle, to cut the legs of enemy, or with upper hits, against heads, as well, or hook type hits ), and that kind of polearm, with a bigger handle ( like on for spears ), but with a shorter blade on top.
I have used/tested a reconstructed falx against a wooden post and I have used a real scythe (to cut the grass). It's different.
Ioan
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - brennivs - tony drake - 01-24-2008
Berbescv thank you for the pics and Lavdes I wished these were avalible when I made my Falx, but will come in handy for the next one I have to make cheers
Regards Brennivs
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - lup_alb - 01-26-2008
Thank you for the pictures and laudes Berbescu, please contact me on PM and maybe we could exchange experience an knowledge. I think I have a lot to learn from you
.
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - diegis - 01-26-2008
Quote:As you see in the pics above this post of you, the dacian knives ( sica, was, in fact, a huge knife, or a smaller sword ) the blade is the same, curved, and sharped on inside ( sica posibly sharped on both parts of blade ). http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/ranistor ... /arma.html http://home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/dacians.htm . You can see on this links images with both one handed and two handed swords, who is sometimes considered a one handed falx, not sica. This can be see as a kind of intermediary form, between a sica and a falx. As well, some blades seen there, look much more suitable to be atached to a bigger handle, spear type. About how was used a falx ( i use too a schyte to cut grass, and have the ocasion to handle some swords and polearms too ), we can know better folowing the reinforcement of roman armour. I dont think that hits as was see to that reenactor pic, who cut a scutum was done too often in time of battle ( thus not imposible ), since the fighter loose precious time to recover the sword. More probable, lower hits, in a kind similar to one used with a sickle/schyte ( thus clearly falx was a pure weapon, not an agricultural tool, as clasic schyte was used in battle in medieval times ), who cut tendons or entire legs, very easy, with a hook and pull towards you the blade. As well, hook the shield, and cut thru him the arms of enemy was another kind of use, and, ofcourse, the higher hits, using the top of the blade, like a kind of pick/bill, or battle hammer, penetrating the helmet, or provoking heavy head damages. All this can be done easily, do to lenght and shape of the sword, and this was the only sword able to breake thru roman wall shield. http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/falx.JPGdiegis:25jboyb9 Wrote:Well, first, i think is developed from sica because of blade, not of handle. Both are recurved blades, sharped inside.
Just the fact that they have a curved edge is not enough to draw a conclusion that the falx is developed from the sica. This is just one characteristic of these weapons. There are many curved weapons (with a blade on the concave edge). It's a different design.
Have you seen an intermediary form between the sica and the falx that pre-dates the Daco-Roman wars? In what museum is it?
Quote:Ofcourse, falx beeing a biger blade, need a bigger handle, for two hands. About the existance of a kind of polearm inspired by the same blade design ( not any conection with romphaia, who was a big sword too, but used in another manner, i believe ), you can see photos even on this topic, with a kind of huge recurved spear heads, resembling somehow the images from Adamclisi.
Where are the photos?
Quote:This is why i believe that was some 3 kind of blades, shorter "sica", used in usual combo with a shield ( dacians used too right swords, as celtic type, or even roman gladius / spatha, thus not as bigger extend ), a bigger sword , "falx" ( who can be used somehow as a schyte / sickle, to cut the legs of enemy, or with upper hits, against heads, as well, or hook type hits ), and that kind of polearm, with a bigger handle ( like on for spears ), but with a shorter blade on top.
I have used/tested a reconstructed falx against a wooden post and I have used a real scythe (to cut the grass). It's different.
Ioan
Re: Dimensions of Dacian Falx? - diegis - 01-28-2010
Salve, this is a nice article i found, about Dacian Falx, including several images of most of falx blades founded (mostly are from Sarmisegetuza or close areas in what is know later as Transilvania, the core of Dacian kingdom back then). From page 10 there is a short article in english, thus one in romanian is more complete. Anyway, dimensions of some of this falxes are presented there.
http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf
This is the article