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Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Tarbicus - 07-24-2007
See next post
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Tarbicus - 07-24-2007
This is a quick perspective correction on their shadows, and rotated as if we were looking straight down on them. It gives some idea of the spacing between the policemen as if seen front on.
![[Image: Korean_drill_shadows.jpg]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/tarbicus/Korean_drill_shadows.jpg)
I'd put them at 3' intervals.
Re: Late Roman Formations - sonic - 07-24-2007
Quote:sonic:ypz8a4jy Wrote:Paullus Scipio:ypz8a4jy Wrote:However, even here, it must be remembered that the chances are that the majority of individuals on both sides would not be interested in personally maiming or killing one of their opponents face-to-face.But isn't that also how things can turn out in battle? I'm thinking of modern behavioural studies of men in combat, including Ardant du Picq's studies.
Come on, people, please have the decency to read the whole post! :roll: In the next sentence, I actually said roughly the same thing myself: “it must be remembered that the chances are that the majority of individuals on both sides would not be interested in personally maiming or killing one of their opponents face-to-face. Although the same may be said to a certain degree of the individuals in Roman armies, they at least have had the training to enable them to do just that when and if the need arose. The rioters usually haven't had such training."
I will always say that the majority of individuals were far more interested in their own safety, rather than in killing an enemy. The earlier Roman system of rewards and promotion encouraged individuals to go out and seek 'glory'. It is possible that the system later went into decline: so did Rome!
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Ian (Sonic) Hughes
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2007
Very good discussion so far - a laudes to all.
Re: Late Roman Formations - Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2007
Quote:There seems to be a view that we generally accept that Hoplite warfare involved locked shields and pushing, and that therefore since Late Romans were similarly equipped, they could have done the same. Vortigern/Robert seems to accept this for Greek warfare, but not Late Roman.Well, I would accept is sooner for hoplites, especially the Macedonian ones, since these had much longer kontoi, which would have made a difference where units depth was concerned. Also, their shields made pushing easier than the pointy bosses of the Late Roman period would have allowed.
But then, I know far less less of hoplites.. :?
The thing is though, if we go by Ammianus' description of Strasbourg, isn't he mainly describing the Alamanni doing the pushing and the fancy knee work? Are we really believing that this was the normal Alamannic way to fight battles? And if so, would that mean that they had developed enough discipline to train very large armies to push like that?
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Felix - 07-24-2007
A word of caution may be appropriate in using the videos of Korean riot police. These are very dramatic, and there are similarities in gear to the Romans, but there is one huge difference.
The job of police is to disperse rioters, and the goal of the rioters is to resist being dispersed/arrested.
In the Classical cases, the job of the legionaries and their foes was the same - to kill as many of the enemy as possible.
Korean riots may be violent, but they don't produce heaps of corpses in the hundreds, let alone thousands. The policemen are not trying to kill or even necessarily maim the rioters. The level of aggression which is expected by the police trainers and commanders is way different from what a centurion would expect and encourage. Conversely, if the surpression of a riot did result in hundreds of dead and thousands of injured, the police would likely undergo harsh criticism and retraining.
This may go far in explaining the lack of aggressiveness on the front line which is seen in these videos. These clashes are real clashes, but very far removed from ancient battles.
Re: Late Roman Formations - L C Cinna - 07-24-2007
Quote:Well, I would accept is sooner for hoplites, especially the Macedonian ones, since these had much longer kontoi, which would have made a difference where units depth was concerned. Also, their shields made pushing easier than the pointy bosses of the Late Roman period would have allowed.
well, we could start another discussion now :roll:
I don't think the Macedonian phalanx does really push at all, if the rear ranks push no one would be able to handle the sarissa anymore.
As for the classic hoplites:
we see that different tactics are adopted when needed. We have a pushing contest in many hoplite vs hoplite battles but against the Persians which did not fight in the same style we see charges in what appears to be comparatively open order (Cunaxa comes to mind).
I guess some pushing contest might have occured during Roman battles but not for long or not really on purpose as you can't use your weapons properly.
Someone came up with Pharsalos:
my impression is that if Caesars soldiers charged like that we indeed would have had some sort of heavy clash and push at the beginning because even if the front rank would want to stop in front of the enemy they would be pushed into the frontline by the rear ranks.
Another battle, where we have something different, is Caesar's battle vs Ariovistus. The Germanics form a shieldwall (like the Alemanni at Strasbourg?) and the Romans try to hit them but can't so they try to grab their shields and drag them down. So no pushing at all although the Germanics would have offered a great target for a pushing contest with their shieldwall expecting the attack. So, if it would have been the usual Roman practice they would have formed a close formation and pushed instead of tearing down shields and such?
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Salvianus - 07-24-2007
Quote:This is a quick perspective correction on their shadows, and rotated as if we were looking straight down on them. It gives some idea of the spacing between the policemen as if seen front on.
I'd put them at 3' intervals.
Yegads, man, but technology is your manservant! Super-clever stuff, laudes.
Still in need of help: is that the starting order, or the 'closer' one? Any idea how wide that makes their shields? :?
Late Roman formations - Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007
Yes, Tarbicus, I think most military psychologists (another good study, referred to in Keegan, is S.L.A, Marshall's "Men against fire" ) would accept that human reactions to severe stress/fright vary widely - some go into a killing frenzy/berserk, but generally the majority are reluctant to kill their fellow human beings. Much military training is geared to overcome this natural reluctance.
I doubt things were any different in Ancient times.
BTW, the quote you referred to should be credited to Sonic rather than me, and he does go on to make much the same point and note of the fact that Roman soldiers were trained to maim/kill - which would tend to make their confrontations even more savage than the riot police's !!
hock:
Late Roman Formations - Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007
...just a note for the avoidance of confusion on formations. When we speak of '3 feet frontage' we should make it clear whether we mean;
1. Each man occupying a 3 foot interval (i.e no gaps and close order) or.....
2. Each man having a 3 foot interval to his neighbour ( i.e. occupying 3 ft, then a 3ft gap and open order ).......
Some good points, Cinna/Michael, illustrating that how troops fight depends on who their opponents are - but we digress once again !!. When Greeks fight Persians, there is generally a fight across the sparabara wall, until eventually the heavier armoured Greeks break through/pull down the wall, when the now shieldless Persians are slaughtered (again, no 'pushing contest').
Caesar's contest against Ariovistus again shows that 'pushing' was not how the shieldwall was broken ( at least in Caesar's time)
As for Pharsalus, I have already said a couple of times, that I believe that a "charge" would generally spontaneously halt at 'fighting distance' ( as we see in the riot videos) - the second rank would be sufficiently far back to avoid impaling their comrades on enemy weapons ( unless deliberately 'shoving' with their shields pressed into their backs, John Conyer style ! :wink: :lol: )
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Felix - 07-24-2007
Quote:When Greeks fight Persians, there is generally a fight across the sparabara wall, until eventually the heavier armoured Greeks break through/pull down the wall
I generally agree, but there is a question: how is the sparabara shield wall destroyed?
"Pulling down" implies the Greeks are actually grabbing pieces of sparas, and pulling them towards the Greek line - which means the hoplites have dropped either their spear or shield. This seems exceedingly unlikely.
The shield wall is actually chopped to pieces, and falls down in small chips. Now, if hoplites were replaced by Anglo-Saxon huscarles with big Danish axes, this would be plausible. Since the primary hoplite weapon is a spear, this is considerably more difficult.
Or, perhaps, the shield wall is pushed down after then man/men immediately behind it is dead. This action does not require the hoplite to disarm himself, it makes sense with his weaponry, but does imply forwards pressure.
Late Roman Formations - Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007
It would seem we have opened a Pandora's box on this interesting subject, Robert !!
I think we should leave the whole subject of Hoplite fighting to another thread in the appropriate forum, at least for now !! :?
As to Germans 'pushing', are we not agreed that the Alemanni are using these pushing/knee-into-the-shield tactics individually/in small groups in an effort to break into or through the Roman lines ? Ammianus :"...and some of the most skilful warriors among the savages by the pressure of their knees tried to force their enemy back;......"
On a cautionary note, after several hundred years of warfare, and service by many in the Roman Army, we would expect German tribesmen to have a good grasp of Roman methods/tactics - and this is evidenced by the adoption of much Roman military equipment (and vice versa) so we might expect them to be more disciplined than in 'the good old days'!
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - Paullus Scipio - 07-25-2007
Yes, Felix, there is some doubt about how the Sparabara wall was dealt with:-
At platea, the Spartans charge, and:-
"First there was a struggle at the barricade of shields; then the barricade down, there was a bitter and protracted fight, hand to hand..." Herodotus.
At Mycale;-
"The Persians, so long as their line of shields remained intact, successfully repelled all attacks.........They burst through the line of shields and fell upon the enemy.." Herodotus
The Greek hoplites may not have had Danish axes, but they have a perfectly adequate tool for chopping up a wickerwork wall in the form of 'Machetes' a.k.a. macheira/xiphoi :wink: :wink: :wink:
Re: Late Roman Formations - Tarbicus - 07-25-2007
Quote:As to Germans 'pushing', are we not agreed that the Alemanni are using these pushing/knee-into-the-shield tactics individually/in small groups in an effort to break into or through the Roman lines ? Ammianus :"...and some of the most skilful warriors among the savages by the pressure of their knees tried to force their enemy back;......"This has cropped up before in another thread, and I'd suggest the 'knee-pushers' were actually kneeling on the ground, digging in with their knees with a low centre of gravity, while their comrades behind them were able to occupy the same Romans at the top half - two against one, so to speak?
Good points about the riot police actually not trying to kill the rioters, but I have to say the rioters in Korea were definitely trying to kill the police.
Re: Late Roman Formations - Aryaman2 - 07-25-2007
Quote:I don't think the Macedonian phalanx does really push at all, if the rear ranks push no one would be able to handle the sarissa anymore.Polybius XVIII, 30 explicitaly said it does
"From this we can easily conceive what is the nature and force of a charge by the whole phalanx when it is sixteen deep. 2 In this case those further back and the fifth rank cannot use their pikes so as to take any active part in the battle. 3 They therefore do not severally level their pikes, but hold them slanting up in the air over the shoulders of those in front of them, so as to protect the whole formation from above, keeping off by this serried mass of pikes all missiles which, passing over the heads of the first ranks, might fall on those immediately in front of and behind them. 4 But these men by the sheer pressure of their bodily weight in the charge add to its force, and it is quite impossible for the first ranks to face about"