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Re: More glue - bah - Paullus Scipio - 01-21-2010
Wow ! Superb post, Henk! Let me be the first to congratulate you, and I would award a 'laus' if I could !
D A splendidly full, and informative post on the subject.....with further info pointed to as well! Excellent stuff ! ....and most interesting !
Re: More glue - bah - Astiryu1 - 01-22-2010
That helps immensely!!! That is why I like R.A.T. I personally do not know enough about any one subject for a post like that; but that is why I am here in the first place. Thank You.
Re: More glue - bah - Astiryu1 - 01-22-2010
Quote:Old kingdom:
Pistacia, an unidentified vegetable oil
M.VIB.M.
I have read texts on Ancient Iraq about cultivation and believe the Pistachio nut could be a viable answer to the Identity. Oil is commonly derived from nuts such as peanuts for many purposes.
Re: More glue - bah - PMBardunias - 01-22-2010
Mastic is a white gum and very well known to the greeks. It was a major product of some of the Islands (Chios maybe). I brought this up a long time ago as a possible linothorax adhesive, back when I believed there was evidence for such, because it is white and water resistant. You can chew it like chewing gum. Herodotus would seem evidence against its use for lamination by Greeks in any case. Another source for resin is that most useful of plants, Silphium. Its been a while since I read this, but there is a secondary product, a water proof varnish that can be derived from the resin as well. And of course none of your hoplites will get pregnant.
Re: More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 01-22-2010
Quote:Wow ! Superb post, Henk! Let me be the first to congratulate you, and I would award a 'laus' if I could !Yes indeed. Kudos
Re: More glue - bah - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 01-22-2010
gratias vobis ago !!
M.VIB.M.
Re: More glue - bah - hoplite14gr - 01-22-2010
My thanks too forthe article.
Some observation on wooden armor that was mentioned earlier.
Greeks were aware of Asians using wooden armor.
Herodotus talks about the Colchians wooden helmets and Xenophon speak of wooden armored opponents of the Myrrioi in the nearby regions Asia Minor.
Wood is well preserved and its durability increase if linen-seed oil is used.
Guns wooden stocks who take a lat of punishment are maintained with this thing. (We were issued with the thing to maintain M-1 wooden stocks)
Wood can take a substantial amount of harsh treatment. In the village housewives crashed things in wooden bowls with heavy bronze cugel-like devices.
The bowls were thin and expected to last 3 years and they often did!
Kind regards
Re: More glue - bah - Archelaos - 01-22-2010
I had checked Beazley vases that were mentioned on page 3 in this topic, and I have to say, that I side with Scott.
For example no.350869
[url:2duzcste]http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/XDB/ASP/browse.asp?PageSearch=true[/url]
If that man on the left is not wearing T-Y, then what is he wearing? Bell and Muscle cuirasses had no shoulder pads, not that early.
It has:
1.shoulder pads,
2.pteruges (wide and short)
3.decoration identical to typical T-Y
no.352587
[url:2duzcste]http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/XDB/ASP/browse.asp?PageSearch=true[/url]
It is more schematic, but man in centre and on the left also seem to have T-Y's. Others probably have Bell or some kind of cloth (tunic)
Edit: If you are getting some random vase from those links, type vase number in the search box on top-right of that page and then scroll to the bottom of a page and click "Pottery database 1 Results"
Re: More glue - bah - Paullus Scipio - 01-23-2010
If it is possible to interpret the figures as wearing Tube-and-Yokes, and the lines as pteryges, it is equally possible to interpret it as a 'Bell' cuirass - note the supposed 'pteryges' are a different colour (the colour of his clothes), thus more likely to be the skirt of his tunic, and the uneven lines, representing folds/pleats. There is no sign of any yoke on any of the figures, and both the black and the white coloured armour are flared out over the hips - exactly like a Bell cuirass of that era, and unlike any Tube-and-Yoke, which are invariably and characteristically straight/parallel sided..... don't be led astray by the 'white colour' on one of them !
Like I said earlier, these figures are too abstract to be able to say what is being depicted, but the absence of 'yoke', and the very characteristic 'flare' at the hips makes the most likely candidate a Bell cuirass.....but it is vague enough to see whatever you want to!
Re: More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 01-23-2010
Yep. Iconographic evidence is the weakest form of evidence. There are none that only have a single interpretation. Without supporting evidence from other disciplines they are next to useless.
Re: More glue - bah - PMBardunias - 01-23-2010
Quote: it is possible to interpret the figures as wearing Tube-and-Yokes, and the lines as pteryges, it is equally possible to interpret it as a 'Bell' cuirass - note the supposed 'pteryges' are a different colour (the colour of his clothes), thus more likely to be the skirt of his tunic, and the uneven lines, representing folds/pleats. There is no sign of any yoke on any of the figures, and both the black and the white coloured armour are flared out over the hips
The "pteryges" are too low in any case. The white armor may also be the type of simple decorated tunic/armor that is commonly seen on early vases. I am tantalized by the possible T-Y elements in this- as if the artist is unsure exactly how to portray them. Perhaps the conventions in portrayal and even actual construction of the T-Y had yet to emerge. It raises the age old question: which comes first, the yoke or the tube?
Re: More glue - bah - Astiryu1 - 02-15-2010
It is possible that the pteryges are just the tunic folds as Paul suggests. That still leaves whatever the figures are wearing as a cuirass be it linen, leather or some other material. The practical application seems right. A greek wife at the time was expected to spend at least some time at a loom to weave cloth. Glue of whatever sort could be obtained by personal production or trading. Not to say these were common but very possible within a week to make it. After making some test armguards myself I think I would prefer leather. Anyway here is a link to an interesting video, [url:2dgjsgb2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ERSx1o8wwk[/url]
I found this before I joined rat. That is the mosaic found in Pompeii with Alexander at Gaugamela if I am not mistaken.
So the Romans too would have knowledge of the existence of linothorax. At least what the artist knew anyway!
Re: More glue - bah - Tim Edwards - 03-06-2010
Gentlemen,
I thought you may be interested in the following abstract:
Some unusually thick linen fragments, including carbonized examples, have been
analysed by Hero Granger-Taylor and identified as parts of pteryges, literally “flaps”, the
narrow hanging elements attached to the shoulders and waists of traditional corselets and
breastplates. The technique is weft-twining and is no doubt the same as in the only other
known example of ancient linen armour, the greave from Dura-Europos. The same
structure is recorded more widely in slings.
From:
http://ctr.hum.ku.dk/upload/application ... %20May.pdf
Weft twining allows one to build up extremely thick single layers. For me, a three ply linen armour would now make sense.
Re: More glue - bah - Astiryu1 - 05-09-2010
Dead Link and what was there was in German. Wakarimasen!!!
Thank you I am very interested but I unfortunately do not know German. I am Confuzzed.
Re: More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 05-09-2010
Quote:I found this before I joined rat. That is the mosaic found in Pompeii with Alexander at Gaugamela if I am not mistaken. So the Romans too would have knowledge of the existence of linothorax. At least what the artist knew anyway!The mosaic was copied from an earlier painting. Did a Roman do the original painting?