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A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Et tu brute - 08-03-2007
Hi everyone,
I'm going to be having a go at making some of my own shoes (late roman, 4th/5thc) and I was just wondering about the sole. I'll be putting hobnails in, so is the sole 2 seperate pieces of leather, glued or stitched together, with the hobnails on the outer piece, or is it 1 thicker piece of leather, so the nails wont go right through? Or something completely differant. I was also wondering where i'd go about getting some socks, or is it best to make them?
Thanks very much,
Dave
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Martin Moser - 08-03-2007
Hi Dave,
do you have any specific find in mind?
3rd/4th century AD shoes generally are of complex construction with one outer sole, 1+ middle layers (laminae), filling the space left between/insaide the lasting margins, and an insole. Nailing goes into the middle layers at least, sometimes also into through the insole. There are a number of finds from Britain e.g. for that time.
5th century shoes, if I'm not mistaken, we don't know much about. There are the Deurne shoes (4th cent.) and those are campagi (more like carbatinae) and unnailed. Should be good for 5th as well, more on those elsewhere here on RAT (e.g. http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=2689 ).
You could of course research shoes from Egypt (often called coptic shoes) of that time, i.e. 4th-6th cent. but many of those known to me have uncertain dating
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Et tu brute - 08-03-2007
Hi Martin,
thanks for the reply. I'll be going from a pattern I got from another group member, I take it that it's a newstead, as that's what it says on the title of the pattern, here is a copy of the pattern.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/F ... 1/News.jpg
If I went for the type that you first stated would all the layers be of the same thickness and type of leather, or would it vary? Also how would they be stuck together? A type of glue or...
Thanks alot,
Dave
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Martin Moser - 08-03-2007
Quote:Hi Martin,
thanks for the reply. I'll be going from a pattern I got from another group member, I take it that it's a newstead, as that's what it says on the title of the pattern, here is a copy of the pattern.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/F ... 1/News.jpg
Ah, what you have here, is what is at least nowadays termed a carbatina. That type of shoe practically never had any additional sole layers (except when patched after a whole appeared in the sole, and even that seems to have been the case not too often). Also they were not nailed normally.
Quote:If I went for the type that you first stated would all the layers be of the same thickness and type of leather, or would it vary? Also how would they be stuck together? A type of glue or...
What I meant here would be a shoe made on a last, quite a bit more dificult to do, I'm afraid. Look here or here for more information on how to do this.
The layers would joined by sewing, bracing, leather strings (for the middle layers) and nailing (again, see my threads on calcei and caligae here on RAT). Middle layers would often use scrap leather bits.
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Et tu brute - 08-03-2007
Thanks again Martin
So if I only use one layer of leather, how will I avoid the hobnails, penetrating the leather and causing them to dig into my foot? And insole or a thicker piece of leather for the sole? Sorry for all the questions!Dave
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Franklin - 08-03-2007
The simple answer is, there ARE no hobnails! That's what Martin meant when he said no additional sole layers. No external sole...no need for hobnails.
Martin, correct me if I'm wrong here.
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Franklin - 08-03-2007
Out of curiosity, I did a search for "carbatina" and "newstead" and came across this image.
![[Image: platexx.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/franklin_arthur/platexx.jpg)
The accompanying text for the center shoe (#5) read:
"Close shoe (calceus) with heavily nailed sole"
I was under the impression that virtually all shoes of this type were unsoled, like Martin says. Also, what's the best date for the Newstead finds?
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Franklin - 08-03-2007
And another question, are there any better images of these finds?
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Et tu brute - 08-03-2007
:oops: Apologies for my ignorance! So if there are no hobnails, would the shoes not be very slippy and hard to grip with?
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Franklin - 08-03-2007
No apologies needed :lol: That's how we all learn.
And yes, I've wondered the same thing. "Slippers" like this would be fine for padding around the city, or for cavalry, but what about soldiers who's lives depended on having a surefooted grip on the turf? There are no surviving examples (that I'm aware of) for heavy, hobnailed boots or sandals in the later empire. Only low, flimsy, unsoled shoes.
I chalk this up more to OVERALL lack of evidence from the 4th/5thc than than a plausible argument that these types of shoes didn't exist.
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Matt Lukes - 08-03-2007
Quote:"Slippers" like this would be fine for padding around the city, or for cavalry, but what about soldiers who's lives depended on having a surefooted grip on the turf?
But that presupposes the hobnail's purpose was for traction, but it's not- it's to preserve the leather sole, and have the nails wear instead, being rather easier to replace nails than soles. They also provide traction, but that's a secondary function. Right up until sufficiently-good synthetic materials were developed in the '40s and '50s, various militaries around the world still used leather-soled footwear and only some, the Germans, for example, still used hobnails. American combat boots, didn't have any nails but were still leather, so the traction must have been sufficient.
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Et tu brute - 08-03-2007
Thanks for your help everybody, i'm going to get some leather tommorow (I think i'll get a fair bit more than I need, to allow for any mistakes) , so i'll let you all know how I get on
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Franklin - 08-03-2007
Quote:Right up until sufficiently-good synthetic materials were developed in the '40s and '50s, various militaries around the world still used leather-soled footwear...so the traction must have been sufficient.
Touchez, sir. Excellent argument. I think we can agree, though, that there's a qualitative difference between leather-soled combat boots and moccasins or, for lack of a better description, bedroom slippers. The handful of roman shoes we have from the 4th/5thc seem to more closely resemble the latter. That's where my frustration comes in. These can't have stood up to the rigors of combat, could they?!
Quote:Thanks for your help everybody, i'm going to get some leather tommorow (I think i'll get a fair bit more than I need, to allow for any mistakes) , so i'll let you all know how I get on
Speaking from experience!!! Use cheapo material for your first few (or several) attempts until you get your pattern just right. You can usually find god-awful pleather in the scrap bin at the fabric store. Once your pattern is perfected THEN you can transfer it onto the expensive stuff.
Re: A bit of help on making some shoes/calcei - Matt Lukes - 08-03-2007
Quote:Matt L:kzbis65y Wrote:Right up until sufficiently-good synthetic materials were developed in the '40s and '50s, various militaries around the world still used leather-soled footwear...so the traction must have been sufficient.
Touchez, sir. Excellent argument. I think we can agree, though, that there's a qualitative difference between leather-soled combat boots and moccasins or, for lack of a better description, bedroom slippers. The handful of roman shoes we have from the 4th/5thc seem to more closely resemble the latter. That's where my frustration comes in. These can't have stood up to the rigors of combat, could they?!
My apologies Franklin- I should have qualified my statement that I was just referring to the function of hobnails, not making a case for them being appropriate for unsoled footwear. Indeed if there is no sole to protect, there wouldn't be any hobnails. The footwear itself would be more replaceable clearly. And indeed, these 'slipper' style shoes couldn't have been meant for any kind of serious use or be expected to last long or offer much protection to the feet. Not that caligae themselves lasted particularly long given the evidence that soldiers could have gone through 2-3 pairs annually (of course suddenly the source for that figure escapes me but it was an annual pay deduction ledger entry for a soldier, so a believable source- a Vindolanda tablet maybe?)
The 'fishnet' boot in the photo from Newstead (6) certainly looks soled with hobnails, but then that's not a 4th/5th century piece such as Dave is looking for I believe...
Calcei - Paullus Scipio - 08-04-2007
....just a small observation. North American Indians didn't seem to have any trouble making war in mocassins in some pretty rough terrain......