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Camillan Legions - Johannes II August - 08-10-2007
Since the Internet has so little good sources about the early Roman army, I would like to know more details about pre-Polybian Roman legions.
Usually, the image I have from a Pre-Marian legion was a bunch of Velites throwing javelins at the enemy, then falling back so that the Hastati could wear down the enemy, then falling back so that the Principes could finally tear them down. But then, my basic view has been quite challenged: I didn't care too much about earlier stages of a legion, which included Rorarii, Leves and such... And the individual equipment of a Roman soldier was very different during the Samnite Wars than during the First Punic Wars or during the battle of Pydna, as I discovered.
I use to play a game, called Rome: Total War, that some of you might know. I've recently installed a modification called "Europa Barbarorum" that adds historical accuracy to the game, and that includes earlier Camillan units. Just some basic questions:
1. What was the individual equipment of each soldier during the Camillan period? Did the Hastati wear any armour at all? The mod portrays the Principes as spearmen wearing only a brestplate. Is that true? How could wealthy soldiers only afford that for body protection? And why did they use spears instead of swords, considering the Triarii already fought in phalanx?
2. What was the effectiveness of Camillan legions, and why did they reform? I presume most Roman legions could have been better equiped from start. Was mail already known in the 4th century BC in Rome?
3. Did the Triarii, the last Roman line, fight in hoplite style with hoplite equipment? And what's the role of Rorarii, etc...? In the mod, they're portrayed as skirmishers, light spearmen, slingers, etc... but I understand their role was vague enough to allow for variations.
I would also like to know when was the Gladius introduced in the Roman army, and what did the Romans use earlier. Presumably a greek xyphos or a local shortsword. Is it known exactly?
Any good information and sources are welcome.
Re: Camillan Legions - Jeroen Pelgrom - 08-10-2007
Welcome to RAT! please put your (first) real name in your signature - forum rule
a very good book is:
[amazon]greece and rome at war[/amazon] by Peter Connolly
see also a previous thread: www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11602&highlight=hastati
Re: Camillan Legions - Matthew Amt - 08-10-2007
Ave!
I found the Osprey volume on Early Roman Armies to be pretty good, too. It even argues specifically against a few points Connolly makes, so you can get 2 different viewpoints and see the evidence better.
"Gladius" is just Latin for "sword", so they would have used it even for Greek-style weapons that look nothing like an Imperial gladius. Back in the pre-Polybian era, there seem to have been several Italian derivatives of the Greek hoplite sword.
It's a pretty hazy era! But it can be VERY interesting.
Matthew
Re: Camillan Legions - Casmin - 08-10-2007
The triarii fought with spear and shield, however, one would not necessarily categorize their respectable units as phalanxes. The stereotypical Roman sword (gladius) is believed to have come from the Iberian peninsula thus "gladius hispaniensis".Myarmoury article
Re: Camillan Legions - Johannes II August - 08-11-2007
Thanks all for the info.
Quote:The triarii fought with spear and shield, however, one would not necessarily categorize their respectable units as phalanxes.
Not that they used sarissas, but maybe they fought more or less in a hoplite fashion with hoplite style equipment (prior to 275 BC).
And about the gladius, I know it came from Spain, but then I would like to know what did they use before. Kopis, xyphos, any names and models
?
Re: Camillan Legions - Casmin - 08-11-2007
Greek militaria was pervasive throughout the Mediterranean (with exceptions of course). Therefore, it's fairly safe to say that whatever swords the Greeks were using 4th c. and prior were also being used by the Romans. According to the myarmoury article I referenced earlier, Villanovan swords were also fashionable in Rome. This seems feasible, however, I did find some holes in the article.
Re: Camillan Legions - Poftim - 08-12-2007
I've searched google and could not come up with a picture or information.
Could I please see a picture of a Villanovan sword?
Re: Camillan Legions - Casmin - 08-12-2007
Well, the Villanovan culture is believed to have derived from the Urnfield culture. Villanovan swords would have been of the "antennae" style.
Re: Camillan Legions - Roy - 08-12-2007
Quote:I've searched google and could not come up with a picture or information.
Could I please see a picture of a Villanovan sword?
'Villanovan' is just the general term for everything from that period in central Italy, so that probably explains why you didn't get any results with google.
The best examples of Villanovan swords are (as far as I know) the Antennae swords.
[edit] Ah, Casmin was faster
Re: Camillan Legions - Casmin - 08-13-2007
Hahaha, sorry. Next time I'll be slower.
Re: Camillan Legions - brennivs - tony drake - 08-13-2007
I did this years ago since I love the Republic period I hope it will help
Severivs Tvllivs 580-530 BC Described by Livy 340 BC
Five classes....................1 Maniple.
Triarii 500......2nd class......50.
Hastati 1000....1st class.......100.
Princeps 1000...1st class.......100.
Leves 500.....3rd class..... 50.
Rorrarrii 500....4th class.......50.
Accensi 500...5th class.......50.
I also have this which was what I have dated 5 BC
Regal period
Tribvnvs Comander (Tribal Officer)
Ramnes 1000 -
Tities 1000 - from each tribe
Lvceres 1000 -
Ordo Eqvester 300
This is as much I can say so far I would need to remember what the references I glemed it from so I will Put on my thinking cap :? hmm
Regards Brennivs