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helmet guage - Mick Saunders - 09-02-2007
Can anyone help?
I am looking for information about the guage of roman helmets. I have the feeling that I read somewhere that the guage has fairly thin , certainly compared to medieval. What sort of protection did these give from a direct head blow? Hence I assume the use of reinforces when up against the falx. But do we assume that up to this time the protection was considered adequate? Was the style of fighting different?
I would be reluctant to use some of today,s replicas even in a reenactment situation, and this despite the rule of no head blows. Has anyone any experiences?
Re: helmet guage - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-02-2007
Welll, I reckon the helmets would gove pretty good protection, assuming you have padding of some sort to absorb some of the blow.Mind you and axe through the top wont take any prisoners............
But then, my seg is pretty thin, and I didn't feel a thing when the centurio walloped me with his vitus......
I think the real helmets would have had some resilience to blows though, perhaps a spring absorbtion. They were expert metal workers after all!
I could ramble on here, but there are some experts on here who will know for sure! 8)
Re: helmet guage - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 09-02-2007
I have received, accidentaly, a one hand axe direct hit with quite force in my helmet.
I have'nt feel anything anormal during the mock combat, but when i have seeen the video...
hock: The helmet is a weisenau, with the normal gauge (1,5-2mm). Now it have only a little dent.
Re: helmet guage - Matthew Amt - 09-02-2007
My helmets are mostly 18 gauge (about 1mm) and weigh 4 to 5 pounds. All the originals that I've seen data for run 2 to 4 pounds. Think thin.
The theory that the cross-bracing was added as a direct response to the falx is a good theory, but only that. Cross-braced helmets (and greaves and manicae) were used in areas where the falx was unknown, though it's very possible that their use simply spread after they were first developed in the Dacian campaigns. Things are always evolving, so maybe a little extra reinforcement just became accepted as a good idea in general, even though most of the time the helmet was perfectly adequate without bracing.
How good was the protection? Well, as usual, all I can say is that the Romans thought they were good enough!
Valete,
Matthew
Re: helmet guage - Medusa Gladiatrix - 09-02-2007
For gladiator helmets Junkelmann has listed all the data, the gauge etc. at the end of his book re the helmets from the Pompeii finds. If you need any info on that I could let you know.
Re: helmet guage - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-02-2007
Mat, it is possible that soldiers who fought in the Dacian campaign later served elsewhere? That is how I conceive of equipment moving across the empire.
Re: helmet guage - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-02-2007
Cesar, I would imagine a blow with an axe from someone intending to kill their opponent would proboably go through! Or a pick type weapon.
Makes me shudder to think about it!
Re: helmet guage - brennivs - tony drake - 09-02-2007
Roman helmets are not that thin to resist a blow .The added protection, the browband was put on to spread the blow of a sword while the crossbracing was to stop the Falx :twisted: from splitting the helm and putting the blade into your head .The same way a medieval warhammer was used to punch holes into helmets. To my mind it would take a pointed weapon to do damage to any helmet no matter thickness it was. Modern replicas are just as good so long as the guy infront of you is not determed to kill you :lol: The only reference to attaking the head is juring the Caesars civil war when he told his infantry to go for the faces of Pompeys cavalry, most were senetors sons .So when the came into contact rather loses there good looks they fled the battle field.
Regards Brennivs
Re: helmet guage - FAVENTIANVS - 09-02-2007
Quote:I have received, accidentaly, a one hand axe direct hit with quite force in my helmet.Accidentally, yes... 8)
I have'nt feel anything anormal during the mock combat, but when i have seeen the video...
The helmet is a weisenau, with the normal gauge (1,5-2mm). Now it have only a little dent.
Re: helmet guage - Tarbicus - 09-02-2007
At the most likely area to receive a blow, the Italic, Gallic and Coolus were about a half inch to an inch thick, if you include the brow guard.
Re: helmet guage - Malleus - 09-03-2007
I was just reading Oakeshotte's Archeology of Weapons. He mentions that Plutarch wrote that Camillus had to hurriedly obtain iron helmets for his men in order to resist Gaullic swords. Of course, that was about 400BC.
Steve P/Malleus
Re: helmet guage - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-03-2007
Thats the chap I am forgetting about!!!!! :oops: :lol: Pluarch!!!! :roll:
Re: helmet guage - Tarbicus - 09-03-2007
Quote:I was just reading Oakeshotte's Archeology of Weapons. He mentions that Plutarch wrote that Camillus had to hurriedly obtain iron helmets for his men in order to resist Gaullic swords. Of course, that was about 400BC."Knowing that the prowess of the barbarians lay chiefly in their swords, which they plied in true barbaric fashion, and with no skill at all, in mere slashing blows at head and shoulders, he had helmets forged for most of his men which were all iron and smooth of surface, that the enemy's swords might slip off from them or be shattered by them. He also had the long shields of his men rimmed round with bronze, since their wood could not of itself ward off the enemy's blows. The soldiers themselves he trained to use their long javelins like spears,— to thrust them under the enemy's swords and catch the downward strokes upon them."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... llus*.html
And before anyone thinks that's proof that the Gallic swords were worthy of Viking legends, read further on :wink:
"But the Romans thrust their javelins into their faces, received their strokes on the parts that were shielded by iron, and so turned the edge of their metal, which was soft and weakly tempered, so much so that their swords quickly bent up double, while their shields were pierced and p203weighed down by the javelins which stuck in them. 5 They actually abandoned their own weapons and tried to possess themselves of those of their enemies,"
I think all that Camillus was doing was giving his men an added edge in battle over the Gauls, and it didn't really have anything to do with the Gallic sword being particularly good.
Re: helmet guage - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-03-2007
Yes that is what is thought. But then you have the school of 'gaullic supremacy in all things metal' :roll:
Re: helmet guage - Thorkil - 09-04-2007
Few words from an armorer. :wink:
You must know that not only the thickness is important, when talking about helmet's durability.
The kind of steel, the way of forging - by hand or by press, tempering - those are also very important things.
Being an armorer who forges helmets and armour with hand hammers and after few years of experiments I know that a helmet heat-forged of 1,6mm spring steel and tempered is much, much harder than the same helmet made of 2mm mild steel, with using a press. Of course with higher quality, the price also must be higher, but that way one buys a helmet one time for a life, as it is practically indestructible. Between mild steel and spring steel there are many kinds of steel, more or less hard. The cause why most of helmets and armors are made of mild steel is that this steel is softer and easier to press or to forge without heat tread, so it gives opportunity for mass production and for making armor for very low price. Also, hand heat-forging require more knowledge and skills than pressing, or even that forging "on cold".
You probably know that making the helmet of one piece of steel, or welding few parts of helmet without electric tools, like our ancestors did, is also possible nowadays.
I think it is always good to know what opportunity you have when ordering armor. Personally, I regret that traditional forging is so unpopular in nowadays and there are so few armorers who have the will and the skills to work this way. Forging, giving steel the shape with using only hammers and power of your arms, watching the changing colors of metal - man, this is something! :wink: This way armorer puts his heart and his mind into every piece of armor.
I think thanks to hand forging armors receive their soul and every helmet or armor part has its unique character.
Maybe with this description I will encourage some of you to try the work with steel.
