Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis)

Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Printable Version

+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) (/showthread.php?tid=10647)

Pages: 1 2

Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 10-06-2007

Ave,

I'm starting to plan the Tongue Pteruges for my Subarmalis.

But I have to ask... where's the seam on the tongue Pteruges?

I see most in folks recreation place a seam at the sides, where the front and back of the lorica meet however, the ancient sculptures do not show a seam on the tongue Pteruges there.

Also, original ancient statues do not have multiple separate tongues (like in Hollywood films) all the tongues are cut out from one large long piece of material that wraps around the waist.

It looks almost as if they are one solid piece with no seam... which isn't making any sense to me. :?

Even if I use leather for tongue Pteruges, I have to meet the piece up somewhere... yes?

Any ideas on this one?

[Image: loricatamassimo2det2a.jpg]

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - C. Apollonius Priscus - 10-06-2007

Not knowing a lot about the garment, I would guess that the back would be the best place. Looking at the sculpture, I would hazard a guess as to the material being thick leather with bronze medallions. Perhaps the two layers are fastened like a belt or tied at the rear over a kilt-like garment. They may also be constructed as part of that garment?

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Theodosius the Great - 10-06-2007

Quote:Even if I use leather for tongue Pteruges, I have to meet the piece up somewhere... yes?

Well, maybe if you were to cut out a circle from a huge piece of leather, then from that piece cut out another circle so that you have a thin ring. I'll try to illustrate : click here

Just a thought.

Btw, Marcus Mummius has shown that the tongue pteruges are actually metal. In some statues at least you can see hinges above each tongue. Especially on the bronze statue of Germanicus.

Maybe there were fabric versions as well, I would think so.

~Theo

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - C. Apollonius Priscus - 10-06-2007

Quote:Btw, Marcus Mummius has shown that the tongue pteruges are actually metal. In some statues at least you can see hinges above each tongue. Especially on the bronze statue of Germanicus.
Maybe there were fabric versions as well, I would think so.

~Theo

The statue of Germanicus' tongue pteruges look odd when compared to most representations but I think that's because of the repair done to the statue. I would definitely say that his are metal just by observing the way they are represented by the "stiffness" of the look. There is also a statue of Julius Caesar with a single row that appear to have a hinge above each tongue and quite a few others. I would think that in such cases where they appear to be metal, they would be hinged to a flexible leather support "belt" worn under the lorica unless the sculpture shows otherwise.

I don't know whether such an item would be attached to a subarmalis or not but from a practical standpoint, It seems to me that it would restrict your movement less and stay put better if it were a separate item.

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Doc - 10-06-2007

Antonius,

I would have to agree. The back would be the best place if any since it is the least visible (especially if you have a cape or cloak of some sort) and the least vulnerable to any contact.

My pteryges are closed at the back so that the sides and the front are a smooth continous arrangment.

Paolo

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Theodosius the Great - 10-06-2007

Quote:The statue of Germanicus' tongue pteruges look odd when compared to most representations but I think that's because of the repair done to the statue. I would definitely say that his are metal just by observing the way they are represented by the "stiffness" of the look.

Maybe the statue looks odd because it's one of the more rare examples of a cuirass without any waist pteruges. Other examples can be found here:

Hellenistic example

Mars

Marcus Aurelius

Some great photos of the tongue-pteruges from the bronze Germanicus statue can be seen on this thread :

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 42&start=0

They're scattered throughout the whole thread.

~Theo

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 10-07-2007

Ave,

Cutting a complete round circle from one large hide of leather could work but, I'd have to figure out how to follow the anatomical shape of the front of the cuirass as well as getting my waist exact.

I'm honestly not 100% convinced those are hinges on metal tongue Pteruges.

I think the Germanicus statue, like the Julius Caesar statue below, look like metal because the statues are metal.. they are bronze statues.

The second statue of Caesar is marble and it looks more like leather or stiffened linen.

Thoughts?

Germanicus Bronze (the lower set could be hinges)
[Image: parazoniumgermanicusMintEmp3.jpg]

[Image: parazoniumgermanicusMintEmp3.jpg]

Julius Caesar Bronze
[Image: Caesar_Rome_Italy.jpg]

Julius Caesar Marble (note how much softer the lorica appears)
[Image: Julius%20caesar%20statue%20II_small.jpg]

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - C. Apollonius Priscus - 10-07-2007

If you examine the link in Theodosius' post above that shows a closeup of the Germanicus pteruges, you can see the difference in the sculpting. To me, the first layer with the Medusa heads looks softer, the second layer looks like metal plates. The hinges appear to be full length which seems kind of odd to me unless they were riveted to a relatively non-flexible backing. I think that would rule out cloth so leather? Metal plate?

Julius Caesar's statues seem to have a little semi-cylindrical roll at the top of each of the tongue pteruges which I could see as being a hinge of either a leather strap or a real metal hinge. Looking closely at all the photos above now gives me the feeling that the tongue ptergues are attached to the lorica. I think that this would be the most efficient way of fastening them since if they were attached to an undergarment, when one bent or twisted , the lorica would ride up or down and would attempt to slip over the plates or raised decorations. If they were attached to the lorica, they would maintain the same spacing and work as a unit. They would probably split wherever the lorica's seams are - which appears to be another puzzle...

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 10-07-2007

Quote:...now gives me the feeling that the tongue ptergues are attached to the lorica...

I do understand what you're saying however; if the tongue Pteruges were attached to the lorica then why is there an obvious seem on the side? On every lorica cuirass they are two halves, a front and a back but, there is not seem on the tongue Pteruges?

How could the two halves come apart, front and back, and the tongue Pteruges not have a seam at the side?

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - C. Apollonius Priscus - 10-07-2007

Quote:How could the two halves come apart, front and back, and the tongue Pteruges not have a seam at the side?

The 64$ question. I think I need to look under a few more statue arms if possible... The sculptor may just ignore the pteruges seam but show the lorica seam on the less detailed statues or it may just be artistic convention for the Romans not to show the seam. EDIT: Well, I found this site which I'm sure that you're aware of: http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/musculata2.htm and found that that the answer is not so simple. Some appear to be fastened directly to the lorica, most do not. Unfortunately, I've never paid attention to this subject and now you have me interested. Big Grin

I'll have to keep puzzling over it. I would also agree with Magnus below that thick leather would make an excellent replica. One could also cast the ornaments out of resin relatively cheaply if you could find or sculpt masters.

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Magnus - 10-07-2007

Cut them out of leather. It's the next best alternative....to metal, and you can dye the leather and stamp patterns in it quite easily.

I guess I should post pics of mine...I have a double row of leather tongue pteryges, overlapping a double row of rectangular pteryges. The rectangular ones are linen wrapped felt, hand stitched with red thread, with gold fringe.

I'll try and post a pic tommorow...it's not quite done yet.

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 10-07-2007

Quote:I've never paid attention to this subject and now you have me interested

Yes, what got me wondering is... I started to make it and then suddenly I stopped and said... wait a minute, how the heck do I do this? :oops:

I agree with Magnus above... I think leather is the way to go. I have several animal head belt buckles for the decoration... I think I'll go with the seam in back, following the anatomical shape is going to be a bit tricky but, I have a few ideas, I'll post photos of what works for me.

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - Magnus - 10-09-2007

Here are my pteryges...have a few more to make on the bottom, and I'm not quite sure what to do about the shoulder ones. I don't think the fringe will survive well being under segmentata plates...so i may go one layer of leather, one longer layer of the linen/felt.

In the top pic you can see the plain row that is offset behind the front row.

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - griffin - 10-09-2007

Matt, The pteryges are looking good, but I want to see how it all looks put together.

Laus for you for getting it done!

Re: Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis) - M. Demetrius - 10-09-2007

!

Quote:I want to see how it all looks put together

Yeah, and I'll bet Matt does, too! :lol: Keep it going, you're getting close now.