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+--- Thread: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) (/showthread.php?tid=11080)
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A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-27-2007
Salve, and first, don`t shoot me.
I saw somewhere an inaccurate reconstruction of a late roman miles wearing a Lorica segmentata and a late roman ridge helmet with a nasal quard. Here is my question:
-Some claim that the lorica segmentata could have been in use as late as 270 AD (Newstead type?). If the hypothese of the late roman ridge helmets having origins in sassanid helmets (like the sassanid one found in Dura Europos around 250-60 AD) is right, could it be (only in theory, I know, we have no evidence whatsoever) possible that we could have had a roman miles WALKING WITH A LORICA SEGMENTATA AND A LATE ROMAN RIDGE STYLE HELMET, say, for example around 280 AD?!
I know we have no evidence for this but is it totally unacceptable that the time-periods / usage of these pieces of equipment could have overlapped for a short peroid of time?
Ok, I rest my case, anyway it would have looked cool :oops: ...
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Tarbicus - 11-27-2007
I've seen it mentioned here that the seg may have been in use in the early 4th-C. What were those Newstead parts found in Spain recently dated to?
Wasn\'t a workshop found - Neuraleanus - 11-27-2007
having segmentata parts dating from the mid 3rd century? Maybe Dr. Bishop can add more details.
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Tarbicus - 11-27-2007
JRMES 12/13: Newstead parts at the fortress of Leon, Spain, dated towards the end of the 3rd-C (at least until the 2nd half). Their quantity indicates they weren't residual, and were found in the workshop. Segs from Eining and Zugmantel are dated to roughly the first half of the 3rd-C.
Apparently it's the backplate from Carlisle that's been put in the 4th-C which, although previously seen as residual, is now opened up to the possibility of being 4th-C because of the lateness of the Leon finds.
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-27-2007
Quote:Apparently it's the backplate from Carlisle that's been put in the 4th-C which, although previously seen as residual, is now opened up to the possibility of being 4th-C because of the lateness of the Leon finds.
Thanks guys, this is really interesting!!
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Cassius Tullius - 11-27-2007
Wouldn't the condition of the metal parts be the only limiting factor?
Smith's iron, also called wrought iron, doesn't deteriorate in the same way as modern iron and steel do. It develops a surface rust and unless it is in a corrosive evironment it doesn't oxidize any further. You can dig up wrought iron impliments. Clean them up after hundred years or more and depending on the soil it was buried in return it to use. Imagine what you can do with something set aside and forgotten above ground in a sheltered space.
A 4th century soldier could be expected to readily recognize segmnta armor. Athough archaic, it might have been a Prestige Item of kit like for example an earlier period heirloom helmet or sword blade.
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared - Robert Vermaat - 11-27-2007
Quote: If the hypothese of the late roman ridge helmets having origins in sassanid helmets (like the sassanid one found in Dura Europos around 250-60 AD) is right, could it be (only in theory, I know, we have no evidence whatsoever) possible that we could have had a roman miles WALKING WITH A LORICA SEGMENTATA AND A LATE ROMAN RIDGE STYLE HELMET, say, for example around 280 AD?!
Although I'm not dead set against seeing a lorica segemnetata for an early 4th -c. reconstruction, I'm not so sure a combination of segmentata and ridge helmet would be a common thing.
First, Jyrki, I can't agree with the logic of a ridge helmet in 280. It would of course not be totally impossible, but... :?
The developement of the ridge helmet is most logically based on Sassanid models, but that doesn't need to link them to the Dura Europos finds at all. So far, the earliest we see them around in in the time of Constantine I, so as far as the evidence goes, he might well have been the one introducing the model. If any were around in 280, they would be the very very early models? maybe thye 'Christies' types? But very rare!
Secondly, these ridge helmets are the 'cavalry' type, which also fits the pattern for the 'new model army' constructed in this period. The segmentata would of course not fit that pattern, being infantry armour.
Therefore an infantryman wearing 'old-style' armour in 280 would hardly have had access to the very latest cavalry 'elite' helmets that were at best just being introduced...
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-27-2007
Yes Robert, you`re right. It is unfortunately just a case of stretching speculation/imagination a bit too far from my part.
I thought that the earliest evidence of "late roman helmets" were from the arch of Galerius (more like the Deir-El-Medineh segmented type)? This photo of a re-enactor with a late roman helmet & Lorica Segmentata just haunted me for a while :wink: ...
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-27-2007
You found my soft spot, Jef :wink: ....
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Robert Vermaat - 11-27-2007
Quote:I thought that the earliest evidence of "late roman helmets" were from the arch of Galerius (more like the Deir-El-Medineh segmented type)? This photo of a re-enactor with a late roman helmet & Lorica Segmentata just haunted me for a while :wink: ...
And you're right, but those are spangenhelme on the heads of Sarmatian ebemy cavalry. True, we speak of the Spangenhelm as a 'Late Roman helmet' too, but it's totally different from the ridge helmet. Probably originating in the Danube area, it's provenance is earlier, although we don't have a good idea when exactly it was introduced into the Roman army.
So far, my proposed introduction theory goed like this:
Spangenhelm (Deir el Medina) - mid-3rd c. after Sarmatian wars.
Ridge helmet (Berkasovo type) - very late 3rd c.
Ridge helmet (Intercisa type) - mid-4th c.
Spangenhelm (Baldenheim type) - mid-5th c.
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-27-2007
Quote:So far, my proposed introduction theory goed like this:
Spangenhelm (Deir el Medina) - mid-3rd c. after Sarmatian wars.
Ridge helmet (Berkasovo type) - very late 3rd c.
Ridge helmet (Intercisa type) - mid-4th c.
Spangenhelm (Baldenheim type) - mid-5th c.
This is more or less my theory too :wink: ! Wasn`t the soldiers depicted in the arch of Galerius thought somewhere to represent the sarmatian quards of the emperor?
BTW, I am just eading Hugh Elton`s "Warfare in Roman Europe 350-425 AD". He claims that the sarmatians were a people of germanic origin. I always tought that they were people of iranian speaking stock?!
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Robert Vermaat - 11-28-2007
Quote: Wasn`t the soldiers depicted in the arch of Galerius thought somewhere to represent the sarmatian quards of the emperor?Oops, indeed. I had the Sarmatians on Trajan´s Column in my head. So spangenhelme are even older.
Quote:BTW, I am just eading Hugh Elton`s "Warfare in Roman Europe 350-425 AD". He claims that the sarmatians were a people of germanic origin. I always tought that they were people of iranian speaking stock?!Their language was for sure Iranian, but they had been allied to germanic peoples for a long time, maybe there was some cultural exchange? Like Danish men marrying Sarmatian women, or Atilla the Hun bearing a Gothic name?
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Virilis - 11-28-2007
Quote:Their language was for sure Iranian, but they had been allied to germanic peoples for a long time, maybe there was some cultural exchange? Like Danish men marrying Sarmatian women, or Atilla the Hun bearing a Gothic name?
Sounds plausible, Robert :wink: !
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Robert Vermaat - 11-28-2007
Since we began talking past each other, I split off the topic about baldrics:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=19704 [/url]
Re: A heretical question (leather Lorica is peanuts compared...) - Tarbicus - 11-28-2007
Quote:Since we began talking past each other, I split off the topic about baldrics:Rob, the last Eining comments by Christian and myself should remain in this thread.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=19704 [/url]
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 889#170889
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 929#170929