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+--- Thread: Persians in wells (/showthread.php?tid=11530)
Persians in wells - DanM - 01-18-2008
I know in 300 Leonidas yells THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAA! and kicks the persian messenger into the well. I read that athenians threw perisans in pits, and spartans in wells. did they kick them in, and was it as theatrical? DId they yell THIS IS SPARTA? and did this even happen?
Re: Persians in wells - Alexander Polemos - 01-18-2008
a pit, maybe. but i wouldnt say that they would throw them in a well. Poisoned the water supply, so id say no on that. about the rest, i believe that they just had leonidas yell for dramatic effect in the movie.
Re: Persians in wells - Giannis K. Hoplite - 01-18-2008
In fact Heodotus says they threw them in a well,telling them there they could find as much earth and water as they wanted! The whole thing sounds like an anecdote,but can't be completely rejected. Does anybody remember what time of the year the Persian embassadors went in Sparta?Some well in Summer are dry.And even if not,I don't think they'd let them there for long,as to poison the water :lol:
And no,Leonidas did not yell anything that has been written down in history,other than "Molon Labe" and "Eat well today for tonight we'll dinner in Hades"
In fact,the Efors would be those who would speak with the Persians.To decide if they'd make war or not,the apella would be called,the gerousia would have posed the exact question for or against wich the Spartan citizens would have to decide if they'd make war or not. Leonidas would not have any authority till this point,other than that he was one of the 60 members of the gerousia.From the point the army would leave Sparta,only then was Leonidas(or any other king)the higher commander of Spartans.And even then he was controled by the gerousia,who had daily report of his actions.If leonidas had done what he did in the movie "300",he would be a traitor to Sparta's laws,and thus he should go and meet Demaratus.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Persians in wells - Paralus - 01-18-2008
I would think it definitely anecdotal.
It may well be (pardon the pun) that the Persians were executed in some fashion. It was anything but normal practice to murder the emissaries of another state and, given the interminable internecine Greek wars, it's not like the Greeks had no experience of such interstate diplomatic to-ing and fro-ing.
I doubt, also, that one would defile a well with the dead unless the well was dry. Then again, any people who could stomach melas zomos regularlywould hardly be bothered by a well overcome by putrifaction.
Re: Persians in wells - Pericles of Rhodes - 01-18-2008
I'm no expert on Classical Greek wells, I’m afraid, but if the well was dried up it was common practice (in medieval England at least) to back fill it to make it safe. Generally they did this with all kinds of rubbish and some of the best mediaeval finds in my local museum have been found dumped in a well (including human remains). Maybe the Spartans back filled their wells with Persians! :wink:
Re: Persians in wells - hoplite14gr - 01-18-2008
The Spartan killed the ambassador contrary to the laws and habits of the time to their knowlege in an attempt to:
1. Stop bribes and private talking
2. Demonstrate their decision to push this affair beyond limits
3. To show theit would rather die than submit.
4. The message was intended for their Pelloponesian Allies and the scheming Argives. No quarter!! (i.e. the Persians were away the Spartans there!)
The sent two members of the Talthybiadae clan (The hereditary Heralds) to be killed in Persia as atonement to the Gods because of sacriledge and not because they thought the "barbarians" as equals.
It has happened again in Greek history when the rebels threatening to wipe out every village submitting to the Turks.
Exterme situations require exterme measures!
But humans are civilized in our time; they shoot and bomb ambassadors.
They do not dumb them in wells because they have ecological consience :twisted:
Some things never change :evil:
Kind regards
Re: Persians in wells - Paralus - 01-20-2008
Quote:The Spartan killed the ambassador contrary to the laws and habits of the time to their knowlege in an attempt to:
1. Stop bribes and private talking
2. Demonstrate their decision to push this affair beyond limits
3. To show theit would rather die than submit.
4. The message was intended for their Pelloponesian Allies and the scheming Argives. No quarter!! (i.e. the Persians were away the Spartans there!)
This, from memory, happened before Marathon. So therefore the "beyond limits" and "die than submit" was left to Athens. Sparta preferred religious ceromony to the above high ideals...not for the first nor last time.
No, it is anecdotal. They will have told the Persians to "hoof it" and may have run 'em through. Who knows. Terrible thing for such a religious state to do though.
Re: Persians in wells - Sean Manning - 01-20-2008
The other odd thing is that apparently we only hear of demands for earth and water in a few passages in Herodotus. In other words, we have no idea if asking for submission in this way was a standard Persian custom, or if it has been embrodiered by legend.
Re: Persians in wells - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-20-2008
From my recollection,Sean, it was the standard sign of submission to the Persians.
Re: Persians in wells - Sean Manning - 01-21-2008
Quote:From my recollection,Sean, it was the standard sign of submission to the Persians.According to Jona Lendering it is only mentioned by Herodotus, and only in the context of the invasion of Greece. So we don't know whether the Persians made the same offer to all the peoples they made war on.
Re: Persians in wells - Artabanos - 01-21-2008
Given that elements like water and earth are sacred in Iranic culture and religions with special emphasise in the Avesta, this sounds plausible.
Re: Persians in wells - PMBardunias - 01-22-2008
As Stephanos points out, the fear of Persia seducing some percentage of her polis into alliance or neutrality was probably very real to the Spartan leadership. The Persians had afterall a Spartan King at court. They may have used such an extreme and sacriligious act as a means of pushing their own citizens beyond a diplomatic point of no return through shared guilt.
Quote:This, from memory, happened before Marathon. So therefore the "beyond limits" and "die than submit" was left to Athens. Sparta preferred religious ceromony to the above high ideals...not for the first nor last time.
You do realize that all the nubile girls danced naked at the Carnea? Given the choice between watching that and saving the Athenians from invasion I think they chose wisely.
On a slightly more serious note, they did march after the festival and seem to have expected there to be some Persians to fight. It would be sound strategy to let the Athenians take a beating, then show up to win the day. Religion in Sparta was always used in a most convenient manner.