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+--- Thread: the use of the drum - military cadence (/showthread.php?tid=11749)
the use of the drum - military cadence - Caius Valens - 02-10-2008
Hello Caius here I was checking out My Space and the state of Roman Reenactment in Italy. There was a broad cast of an Optio and a Group of Legionaries (Legio XI Pia Fideles)marching about. Not bad the commands were in Latin. However bringing the dack of the cloum was a drummer.? I thought the drum was unknow in the Roman Army. How did the Romans Keep step? Cheers THOMAS/Caius
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-10-2008
Yes, it is a strange thing that they didn't have drums. Alexander used them, the greeks used a drum or stone to keep time in their fleets, yet the romans didn't use one to keep a cadence. :?
I wonder why they would not use one. It always seemed a given they did to me....can't remember where I read it on here that they didn't.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - arklore70 - 02-10-2008
All the current evidence and research seems to indicate that the Romans did not use the drum (literature, art, sculpture, metopes, etc). Should we look at perhaps other means?
There are more ways than just a drum beat that cadence on the march can be kept. This of course assumes that they kept in step, and were not marching over long distances at a route step.
Something simple as a "Sin...Sin...Dex..Sin" could have kept cadence.
Musicians in the ranks could have had a way of keeping cadence and step.
Something that is noticeable in larger formations from say about 50+ up to 15,000 (yes, I have been part of movements this big) is that once the formation is in step, the sound of equipment worn by the soldiers begins to make a very hypnotic rhythm of its own, which helps keeps folks in step. The Romans were noted for the sound of their of their hobnailed boots and the jingle and jangle of their gear, perhaps it was nothing more than this.
and of course, this is all speculation, with thoughts pouring out of head with that first cup of morning coffee
Cheers,
Mike
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-10-2008
No you make good sense to me.
My only experience of marching is in the XIIIIth, hardly a massive formation and what you say rings memories true, the clack of shoulder plates, the crunch of hob nails, and of course the 'sin, Dex, sin, Dex....' damn why so long to show season....
all have a comfortably hypnotic rhythm
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2008
Quote:Something simple as a "Sin...Sin...Dex..Sin" could have kept cadence.
Skipping a step - lovely image!
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Tarbicus - 02-10-2008
Why would they march in step at all? A phalanx is a much closer formation than a maniple or century, and ships are a different thing altogether given the potentially disastrous results of oars smashing into each other.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - john m roberts - 02-10-2008
The closest thing I've seen to a drum in Roman art is a tambourine, and they seem to have been associated with Dionysian rituals. Greek soldiers are sometimes seen marching to the music of a double flute. When I was in the army we rarely had drummers or a band and marched in step to voice command or chants, many of them obscene, which always seemed to help.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Endre Fodstad - 02-10-2008
Quote:Why would they march in step at all?
Good question. Back when I was still an active roman reenactor I looked all over for evidence to that effect and came up quite empty. I have the impression that most modern people's tendency to fall into the step when depicting historical soldiers have more to do with our own modern conditioning on what is "military" than anything else...
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Ioannes Vandalicus - 02-10-2008
Quote:music of a double flute. When I was in the army we rarely had drummers.
good point. In modern day we also rarely have drummers, but soldier march without big problems. (do not remind me, that modern army do not use phalanx formation, I know, thank you :wink: )
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Marcus Caecilius Avitus - 02-10-2008
Quote:most modern people's tendency to fall into the step when depicting historical soldiers have more to do with our own modern conditioning on what is "military" than anything else...
Sorry, but I've got to disagree! I accept that there's no eveidence or even any need for drums. Take any group of people (of roughly the same build) get them walking on a distance walk and pretty soon they fall into the same step. This is nothing to do with modern interpretations of military perceptions but of simple observation of human nature. I've noticed this on walks with groups long before I took up reenacting and I've nver done any military service.
Although there is no specific mention of them marching in step, conversely I know of no mention of legionaries marching out of step. In fact this is almost impossible, once a dominant step has been established. If you've ever marched in a parade with a band playing at a non march pace you'll know what I mean :lol: :lol:
If one of the fear factors of the Roman army was the unision of movement, surely marching in step would support this.
I don't think a big deal would have been made about marching in step (otherwise we would likley have found reference to it by now). I think it was more a case of do what comes natural, march in step.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2008
Quote:Tarbicus:2zjbg0pc Wrote:Why would they march in step at all?Good question. Back when I was still an active roman reenactor I looked all over for evidence to that effect and came up quite empty. I have the impression that most modern people's tendency to fall into the step when depicting historical soldiers have more to do with our own modern conditioning on what is "military" than anything else...
And it might also be due to that assumption that we look at the past and assume that 'therefore' things were done differently. They might not. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Timothy Dawson wrote (Dawson, Timothy and Angus McBride (ill.) (2007): Byzantine Infantryman, Eastern Roman Empire, c. 900-1204, Warrior 118, (Osprey)) about the 6th-c. Strategikon, which mentions formation manoevres that assume that troops were well drilled to march in step.
He gives the example of the impossiblilty to countermarch with 15 ft.-long kontaria without such a level of training. And while many commentators have testified of the methods of this training manual dating back into antiquity, I can see the resemblence between these long spears and classical Greek sarissas. If Dawson is correct and such weapons made the marching in step necessary, this could be a Greek invention that was adopted by the Romans in due course.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Endre Fodstad - 02-10-2008
Not been in the army, have you? Marching in step is not a feature of long-distance marching carrying full marching equipment for a number of reasons (#1 probably being that it isn't very healthy to carry a large pack and not being allowed to keep to your own style of walking, and #2 that it is in fact more exhausting than just letting you set the beat yourself). We frequently did day marches both on roads and off-road and with a bit of practice and some space between the men (something at least late roman/byzantine manuals stress - ([EDIT]my copy of the Strategikon most definitely do not talk about marching in step, at least - it just stresses that the soldiers should drill countermarching, and stresses spesifics such as that they all should turn to the same side when turning to avoid problems with spear entanglements. Assuming that one must march in step to achieve these manouvers just sounds like the modern world once again intruding upon armchair theories. The text in the Strategikon is in fact rather spesific in a number of discussions of unit and individual movement, and I cannot recall any mention of the byzantines being told to march in step) there is no problem keeping cohesion and achieveing unity of movement. So for most modern soldiers, at least, marching in step is not a natural tendency unless they want to wear themselves out.
A much stronger point is that when close order linear movement starts to appear in military use in Europe, marching in step is clearly stressed by peacetime drill manuals - for the kind of shoulder-to-shoulder marching manouvres we are certain the romans did not employ.
But I guess this is an old debate.
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Tarbicus - 02-10-2008
Quote:That doesn't mean they had to do such things for over six hundred years before then. You late Romans do like to point out your ever increasing 'Greekness' :wink:Endre Fodstad:1bcpvz24 Wrote:Tarbicus:1bcpvz24 Wrote:Why would they march in step at all?Good question. Back when I was still an active roman reenactor I looked all over for evidence to that effect and came up quite empty. I have the impression that most modern people's tendency to fall into the step when depicting historical soldiers have more to do with our own modern conditioning on what is "military" than anything else...
And it might also be due to that assumption that we look at the past and assume that 'therefore' things were done differently. They might not. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Timothy Dawson wrote (Dawson, Timothy and Angus McBride (ill.) (2007): Byzantine Infantryman, Eastern Roman Empire, c. 900-1204, Warrior 118, (Osprey)) about the 6th-c. Strategikon, which mentions formation manoevres that assume that troops were well drilled to march in step.
He gives the example of the impossiblilty to countermarch with 15 ft.-long kontaria without such a level of training.
I'd like to know if modern English Civil War pikeman re-enactors need to step in time to each other to manoeuvre?
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Endre Fodstad - 02-10-2008
I just quick-read through the entire Strategikon chapter XIIB 8-17 (the sections describing infantry formations and infantry drill) and I am at somewhat of a loss on how one could come to the conclusion that it is describing someone that has to march in step - the text is very spesific when it comes to manouvers, detailing commands for when to turn, how to turn, how to countermarch, how to broaden and deepen formation and so on and so forth and I cannot detect anything indicating the need for, or any hint of, marching in step....it might have been that someone misconstrued the end of XII-B-17, where the author tells the reader that once battle is joined and the armies have engaged, there is no need "for all (in the line) to halt or march uniformly in obedience to a single command"; there he just indicates the impracticality of precice formation movement when engaged in combat...
Could be I have a bad translation...it's the George T.Dennis one from University of Pennsylvania Press, ISBN 0-1822-1772-1, from 1984.
When we do our viking age 250+ people mock battles in Scandinavia and line up the army, I have never experienced any problems when we march up to the battlefield and manouvre about with our 12-foot spears. Might be it would be different with 15-foot ones, but I have my doubts. Only one way to find out!
...anyone got 200 guys with 15-foot spears lying around? Preferably armoured...
Re: the use of the drum - military cadence - Marcus Caecilius Avitus - 02-10-2008
Endre, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree! whilst I freely admit I haen't done military service I have done my share of expeditions with packs and the people I walked with tended to do so in step.
Perhaps one of the issues here is the ground covered. Rough ground would be very difficult to cover in step. But level ground is a differnt matter. Bear in mind that the roman road network was established specifically for the rapid deployment of troops and that parade grounds (outside forts) were ostensibly flat.
Surely this is an area where the absence of evidence allows reenactors to trial options and take a pragmatic approach. The original thread was talking about drums in a military context which I think we can virtually eliminatethis, as there are enough friezes and depctions of military formations showing musical instruments but no drums.
The concept of marching in step is rather more difficult to glean as we need to rely upon written evidence, which appears to lean neither one way or the other. but I have to ask why people persist in distancing Roman thinking from us so much? They came from Italy not the Crab Nebula.
Quote:A much stronger point is that when close order linear movement starts to appear in military use in Europe, marching in step is clearly stressed by peacetime drill manuals - for the kind of shoulder-to-shoulder marching manouvres we are certain the romans did not employ.
So because the later written drill was for a type of formation the Roman's didn't use, such a drill would not be used by the Roman's :? ? lol: :lol: