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+--- Thread: specifics in Spear fighting combat (/showthread.php?tid=11872)
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-26-2008
Quote:Yes,the spear in single combat could be held underhand,as shown in art.
Also, remember that you have been holding your spear up and overhand for quite some time by this point, so underhand would be a relief. The problem is that you need to change over your grip to use it in this fasion or else the sauroter is facing forward.
As noted, the true overhand grip is a bit stylized and a requirement of the dense nature of the phalanx. In the open a man can strike both overarm and sidearm with the same grip, then, changing his grip, strike underhand low, underhand lateral, and underarm up over the shield rim with the spear tucked like a lancer. My SCA friends often use sweeping cuts, but I don't know how authentic this is as I have neither read of it nor seen it in art.
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - Sean Manning - 02-26-2008
Paullus, could you clarify what you mean by -hand? I think overhand is a thumb-towards-buttspike grip, and underhand is a thumb-towards-spearhead grip, but I'm not sure what you mean by sidehand.
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - hoplite14gr - 02-26-2008
Strongly agree with Paul on grip change.
When on guard with shield infrond of you and your in spear vertical position toy can execute "DORI ANASCHESTHAI" by raising it and lever it on your shield to level it. Thumb points twards point then. It is alast disch defence for rear rankers whose stichos has been penetrated but it awkard and difficult in synaspismos.
Thumb in overarm thrust can point either towards the buttspike or can be close to your fingers. Our members are devided on what is better.
Hope I have helped you Sean
Kind regards
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-26-2008
Some images of strikes
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - Robert Vermaat - 02-26-2008
Hi Paul,
I don't seee much difference between the underhand low and the underhand high representations. The spear seems to be held evenly high when compared to the body of the owner.
The only difference seems to be that the underhand/low guy holds his spear much further back on the shaft. This looks impractical, or must we assume the shaft is much longer and he grips it in the middle?
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - hoplite14gr - 02-26-2008
After experimentation:
Top right is a good position to start when doing Ekdromos service
Top left is impractical
Lower left is possible but I am of the opinion that was uncommon and the situations for its use even more uncomon-probably at the end of the battle.
Lower middle is rather uncommon but many of our members choose to advance with their hands at this level.
lower right is again common for attacking open order troops or fleeing enemies especially if toy are a rear ranker.
Kind regards
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-26-2008
Quote:I don't seee much difference between the underhand low and the underhand high representations.
I'm somewhat limited by the images I have from vases, but I tried to get close. Underhand and overhand are less than clear. Lets call it thumb-toward-point and thumb-toward-sauroter to differentiate the grips. From this basic difference you can strike with a spear over the full range of motion of the arm. With a thumb-toward-point strike you can strike over a range from the knuckles touching your thigh, to the arm held out sideways, ending as you raise your arm awkwardly to strike from above with the knuckles facing away from your head. You have the additional option of tucking the spear up under your arm, like a lancer, and jabbing out. (This last position has been advocated here on Rat in the Roman section for late roman spears on a recent thread).
The thumb-toward-sauroter hold is more limiting. You can strike in a range from over your head to a sidearm thrust- beyond this the wrist cannot be turned to keep the point forward.
I borrowed from Leonardo to show the approximate range of motion:
Spear fighting technique - Paullus Scipio - 02-26-2008
...another point may be relevant here; namely that a thumb-forward-toward-spearhead grip can be used overhand OR underhand, without having to change grip and facilitates a quick change from one to another - it's disadvantage being that an overarm thrust with this grip is not as strong/powerful as the overhand grip with thumb-toward-butt-spike/sauroter.......obviously, grip would change from one situation to another.
Robert wrote:-
Quote:I don't see much difference between the underhand low and the underhand high representations. The spear seems to be held evenly high when compared to the body of the owner......however, as you are a Late Roman, I am sure I have seen the 'high underhand' depicted by you in photos on other threads, even if it is not too clear from Paul's pot images....it is the one where the spear is tucked relatively high under the armpit, elbow out, whereas the low thrust has the arm almost full length, and the stab comes up from below the waist, with a bend of the elbow/forearm in a fairly vertical arc...
"the most dreadful thrust of all" ?
D lol:
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-26-2008
Here's a link to the late roman post I referred to:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 91&start=0
I didn't realize I was sending you to look at yourself
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - Alexander Polemos - 02-27-2008
THIS is more what i was looking for^^ thanks guys.
holding the spear low with your thumb toward the point can give fair range if you step forward and extend your body, and makes aheck of a lot of power without too much strain on the wrist. i was experimenting today... i mutilated the side of a 55 gallon drum. its a really strong thrust.
an overhand thrust (thumb toward sauroter) its a little tough on the wrist, and the range is a little less because you tend to thrust more down than out. but it does have aittle more power, if your wrist can take it.
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-27-2008
Quote:an overhand thrust (thumb toward sauroter) its a little tough on the wrist, and the range is a little less because you tend to thrust more down than out. but it does have aittle more power
The downward T-T-S thrust can be very powerful as you mention because you can bring your weight behind it like chopping with an axe, but there are other advantages. The first has been mentioned and would be enough on its own to mandate it in the phalanx: you won't injure anyone behind you.
Additionally, no other strike gives you the same range of lateral targets. You practically have a 180 degree arc in front of you covered just by rotating the wrist. You also have more targets since a side-arm thrust will always come in on the shielded side of your opponenent.
If we take into account the aspis, then this strike has the greatest reach. The round aspis, pressed to the chest in formation, or held a bit away if not, will interfere with a stab delivered sidearm at its widest point. To counter this you have to uncover the body with the shield to get it out of the way.The overarm thrust pushes the whole arm over the rim of the shield.
You may read that hoplites stabbed standing sideways with the shield up resting on the shoulder facing an opponent. This is drivel spawned from a lack of either experience in combat or a course in functional anatomy. I have read this described as "like a fencer", though the author must be unaware that a fencer LEADS with his right and the weapon. Striking over one's head and across one's body is a joke, no matter what some sculpture shows. Squaring to strike, then jumping back is fine, but it negates most of the benefit of hiding back in the first place. Simply leading with the left foot rather than standing perpendicular to your opponent is more rational.
Re: Spear fighting technique - Robert Vermaat - 02-27-2008
Quote:Top left is impracticalYes, when held exactly like on the vase, but see the other comments:
Quote:You have the additional option of tucking the spear up under your arm, like a lancer, and jabbing out. (This last position has been advocated here on Rat in the Roman section for late roman spears on a recent thread).and:
Quote: ..however, as you are a Late Roman, I am sure I have seen the 'high underhand' depicted by you in photos on other threads, even if it is not too clear from Paul's pot images....it is the one where the spear is tucked relatively high under the armpit, elbow out, whereas the low thrust has the arm almost full length, and the stab comes up from below the waist, with a bend of the elbow/forearm in a fairly vertical arc...
Indeed. My comment was a bit meant to draw out information, but I see it was recognised for what it was.
yes, like Paul said, the 'high underhand' or 'high underarm' grip is advocated among Late Roman re-enactors, following Stephenson I think(Stephenson, Ian P. (1999): Roman Infantry Equipment, the Later Empire, (Tempus)) as a way to extend the lance but still retaining enough to control to jab with it.
The image on the vase looked like the hoplite gripped his spear at the back of the lance, but the weapon was not high enough to compare it to the 'tuck under your arm' position, more like halfway. I'm glad it was recognised as such anyway.
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - PMBardunias - 02-28-2008
Robert,
Do you know where the late roman spears were balanced to be held? Assuming the dory and the later spear had similar weighted points, which I do not know, the sauroter would shift the balance point back quite a bit. I've heard a number of times that they may have tapered as well, but I'm not sure what that is based on.
Here's a vase image of a spear showing the grip well towards the base and the spear also looks tapered. The artist seems to have used foreshortening to add depth, so the taper may be an illusion, but I think the grip position relative to his height is less affected by the optical trick.
Spear Fighting - Paullus Scipio - 02-28-2008
There are other 'pots' that spring to mind which also show small spear points, a tapered shaft, and a grip shifted to the rear - IIRC there is one showing a later Hoplite fending off an Amazon/Persian cavalryman with such a dory
The later long cavalry spear kamax was also small-headed and tapered shafted......
Re: specifics in Spear fighting combat - hoplite14gr - 03-03-2008
Agree with Paul on savrotir bringing the weight backeards.
Your hand could be cleaved while stabbing.
http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh84 ... 010052.jpg
Hope the final vide will shoe better.
Kind regards