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+--- Thread: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military (/showthread.php?tid=12620)
Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - jkaler48 - 05-13-2008
Referring to the use of Lion skins by the Roman military and Lions in the Games and Elephants for games and military use:
It occurs to me one of the reasons Lions are a now a protected animal
and lion skins are hard to get is the the Romans used up all the Lions
in Europe, the Mideast and North Africa and but for the decline of the Games due to adoption of the Christian faith would probably got the rest of them in the south of Africa also. I wonder how many different species went extinct due to the Romans - The North African Elephant subspecies of Elephant is one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Elephant
Also from Wikipedia:
"P. l. europaea, known as the European lion, was probably identical with Panthera leo persica or Panthera leo spelea; its status as subspecies is unconfirmed. It became extinct around 100 AD due to persecution and over-exploitation. Inhabited the Balkans, the Italian Peninsula, southern France and the Iberian Peninsula. It was a very popular object of hunting among Romans, Greeks and Macedonians."
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Ironhand - 05-13-2008
On the other hand though, do you really want lions in Europe? I'd prefer to have to go on safari to see them myself.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-13-2008
It was commented in one of the sources that the games caused a scarcity of wild animals such as lions. I would need to wade through a pile of them to find the right one though..... :roll: as usual....sorry can't be of more help there.
It was someone writing about the late Republican(Caesar) or the Early Imperial...... :?
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Tarbicus - 05-13-2008
They didn't know better then. We do now. They had an excuse, we don't. :wink:
It's my understanding the Barbary/Atlas/Nubian lion was up to twice the size of the African lion and two were kept in the Tower of London in the 13th/14th Century. It's only been extinct in the wild since 1920, so Rome can't be blamed for that one.
The brown bear didn't become extinct in Britain until the 10th-C, so they can't be blamed for that one either.
even though the Asiatic lion became extinct in Greece in the 1st-C, it was still widespread in the near and middle east until the 19th-C and was killed of by other later cultures.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - L C Cinna - 05-13-2008
Quote:Referring to the use of Lion skins by the Roman military and Lions in the Games and Elephants for games and military use:
It occurs to me one of the reasons Lions are a now a protected animal
and lion skins are hard to get is the the Romans used up all the Lions
in Europe, the Mideast and North Africa and but for the decline of the Games due to adoption of the Christian faith would probably got the rest of them in the south of Africa also.
on the other hand, didn't the adoption of the chr*stian faith also serioulsy decrease the availability of cheap food for lions and such? maybe that was another reason... :twisted:
Quote: I wonder how many different species went extinct due to the Romans - The North African Elephant subspecies of Elephant is one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Elephant
Also from Wikipedia:
"P. l. europaea, known as the European lion, was probably identical with Panthera leo persica or Panthera leo spelea; its status as subspecies is unconfirmed. It became extinct around 100 AD due to persecution and over-exploitation. Inhabited the Balkans, the Italian Peninsula, southern France and the Iberian Peninsula. It was a very popular object of hunting among Romans, Greeks and Macedonians."
I think the lionhunt in Europe wasn't just done for the fun of it. I guess most would be hunted down because peasants wanted to protect their herds, just like what happened to the wolves later on.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Medusa Gladiatrix - 05-13-2008
Some types of esp. North African animals got extinct because the Romans hunted the excessively for displays in the arena. I at least recall that this concerns one type of lion but don't know what the English name for this lion would be, in German it's called "Berberlöwe".
The Romans of course did not have the knowledge about nature and environment as we have today. They saw themselves as masters of their world, and that did not include the conquered peoples but also the nature. That was also a reason why they didn't see anything wrong in venationes as Thomas Wiedemann explains in his book "Emperors and Gladiators".
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Tarbicus - 05-13-2008
Agricultural expansion, and the protection of livestock, are good points from Micha. "Gladiatorial demand" seems a bit too convenient for my liking.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-13-2008
I heard also some cooking herbs became extinct due to over use by the Romans, which ones i forgot..
M.VIB.M.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Jona Lendering - 05-13-2008
Tacitus implies that the aurochs disappeared from the Low Countries due to the demands of Roman taxmen. (He may be wrong: no bounds were found younger than, say, 100 BC.)
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Tarbicus - 05-13-2008
Quote:Tacitus implies that the aurochs disappeared from the Low Countries due to the demands of Roman taxmen. (He may be wrong: no bounds were found younger than, say, 100 BC.)Maybe in Italy and other parts of western Europe, but they were still around in Poland, Lithuania, Moldavia, Transylvania and East Prussia until the 13th-C, and the poaching or killing aurochs became punishable by death due to their declining numbers with gamekeepers being exempt from local taxes. The last recorded aurich was in 1627 in Poland.
It's on Wiki so may be subject to question, but the references show research has been done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs
extinction - Arminius Primus - 05-13-2008
Ave,
Thought I would wade in a bit on this one. Extinctions can often be laid to a single source ( Hunting, etc.) but most often it is a cascading effect of mutiple causes. Expansion of agriculture, protection of grazing herds, loss of habitat all most likely all played a role. While hunting and providing animals for the games are likely suspects, they are not the sole reason for extinctions.
Another/ different / related area to consider was the inordinate amount of fish sauce consumed in the empire. You would think that extending that as the favorite condiment would have created serious over fishing conditions in the Med. Wasn't the best sauce from Tuna and Mackerel ? I know that world tuna populations are down and that this fish resource is now managed extensively with national qoutas but that is a modern event.
Any evidence of over fishing and fish stock exhaustion in the literary record??
Regards from the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al
Elephants - zugislander - 05-13-2008
Hello all,
EDITED I stand corrected on the elephant part and retract it. Sorry for my error. I will continue to look for the original article.
As to the question of over fishing, that has been a long growing problem. There is a fascinating book by Mark Kurlansky I believe on the almighty "Cod", entitled "Cod", that details the fishing and over fishing of the newfy banks and all the Icelandic "Cod wars" of the last half century. For those who enjoy such, it also includes lots of recipes.
Cordially,
Michael
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-13-2008
Location: State of Confusion
Indeed!
M.VIB.M.
Re: Animal Extinctions caused by the Roman Military - Hibernicus - 05-13-2008
And it was the Romans entering North America via Siberia/Alaska that killed off the sabre toothed cat....
Didn't the guys from South Park write a song?
"BLAME ROMANS"
HIBERNICVSS
Re: Elephants - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-13-2008
Quote:Hello all,
Acursed Wiki!!!! Wrong as usual! Actually the wee elephants are still alive today. They were actually rediscovered in Morrocco, but I can not find that article. Here is a link with picture of a few of them trooping about in central Africa. Hanibal Lives in the Hearts of Men!
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Africa ... 431866.htm
So that is one more that you can not blame on the Romans.
As to the question of over fishing, that has been a long growing problem. There is a fascinating book by Mark Kurlansky I believe on the almighty "Cod", entitled "Cod", that details the fishing and over fishing of the newfy banks and all the Icelandic "Cod wars" of the last half century. For those who enjoy such, it also includes lots of recipes.
Cordially,
Michael
Errr, I think this is just a different species. The north African one is extinct it says.