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Plumbata - Printable Version

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Re: plumbata - JVL - 11-19-2007

Have you experimented with them? How effective are they agaist an armoured/non-armoured enemy with a shield maybe?


Re: plumbata - Peroni - 11-19-2007

Quote:Peroni wrote:
BTW, The Deepeeka ones are socketed rather than tanged if that makes any difference?!. The socket is beneath the lead weight. I think the LM ones are tanged.


Are you sure? have you seen that?
I'm puzzled - if they are socketed, then is how is the metal reinforcement attached to the shaft?


The Deepeeka ones are made like this... When assembled, the lead is cast over the socket/join.
[Image: plumbata.jpg]


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 11-20-2007

Quote:The Deepeeka ones are made like this... When assembled, the lead is cast over the socket/join.
[Image: plumbata.jpg]

Then I'm still as puzzled as before - because even though the lead does not feel like lead, I'm no expert in metallurgy. But I KNOW the weight is distributed differently than all other plumbatae I've held! :?


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 01-23-2008

PLAY THE 'MISSING PLUMBATA' GAME!!


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 04-04-2008

Hi Tomothy.

Like Ste says, plumbatae have a much longer range than the pilum ever had.
But the javelin also changed, from the weighted pilum to the unweighted verutum and spiculum by the time of Vegetius. I looks like the heavy javelin disappeared anyway.

So yes, addditional weapons, but also different, and probably for a different role..
Also, the weight need not have been too tiring to the infantryman - it may have been possible that this decription refers to a means of transportation. To throw plumbatae quickly, they are likely to have beeen removed from the shield before throwing.

Quote:
Timotheus:3srfpohd Wrote:At least some legions in the late Empire switched from the pilum and the spiculum to the much smaller and lighter darts called plumbata...
1. Much smaller means they are not going to penetrate enemy shields and force the enemy to drop shields. Also would assume they are less likely to penetrate armor.

2. Their weight inside the shields would tire a roman soldier faster if he ends up in close combat before he can throw all of his darts.

I didn't have the impression that they replaced the various javelin types, but they were an additional arm - Sander van Dorst's extracts from Vegetius on the other thread give a good summary of this.

They are much easier than javelins to carry in formation and can be thrown more subtly from behind the shield. I think they are designed primarily for soft targets rather than shields and would have been used en masse only against unshielded (or relatively unshielded) formations, such as light infantry or cavalry.

But more likely, I think, that they would be cast at a venture against the unprepared, by virtue of longer range and sneakier throw and perhaps mixed in with standard missiles: you can pog plumabata ballistically and quickly chuck javelins directly, which could work well if the enemy's testudo drill was rusty!

At short range, the weight gives them another role: if you have room to throw them overarm, they seem to benefit from mechanical advantage like a throwing axe, but the flights correct the attitude - we have smashed a few wooden targets that way with blunts. Big Grin

Quote:Thanks for the information. The few sources I had read on it suggested that they replaced the larger heaviers javalins which made no sense.

If they were added as additional weapons then that would make alot more sense.



Re: plumbata - John Conyard - 04-04-2008

Early Romans seem wedded to their pila, while later Romans always seem to concentrate on the throwing dart.

Later infantry were literally carrying a range of javelins to the battlefield. Using Vegetius for terminology and size, the spiculum is now the "heavy" javelin, weighing around 665g. The verutum is a lighter cheaper javelin of around 350g. They both have a range of around 20m, but the spicula hits with the greatest penetrative power. A glass from Germany shows infantry carrying two spicula, but for the same weight a quiver of veruta could be carried, perhaps better for use against "light" infantry. The spiculum will probably bend on impact. But untempered bent spicula and damaged veruta can be easily re-shaped and sharpened.

Before or even during action veruta could be passed to the front ranks to throw. But buckets of plumbata could also be passed forward or issued. At around 200g for an individual dart, they are light and small enough to make transport relatively easy. I disagree that they were strapped to the internal right hand side of the shield. Over 1kg of lead and iron pulls the shield out of alignment. But buckets of darts as mentioned by Maurice, can be tied to the shield handle keeping the weight centralised and the shield in a vertical alignment. The darts can be retrieved and thrown quickly, without the bucket getting in the way. It certainly allows the darts to be carried inside the shield without trying to carry them in your in your hand.

Underarm plumbata out-range other javelins, with 80m being easily achieved. They land near to vertical over the shields of your enemy, making a hazard for horses as well. Thrown overarm plumbata have a greater velocity than a javelin, which compensates for their relatively light weight. The join between the metal and wooden components generally break on impact. The darts can be put back in commission in the field but it takes relatively longer to effect repairs.

When deciding what to carry choices have to be made. I suspect veruta and plumbata could be issued before any general action. So two spicula seem a good general combination for a pede to carry for most occasions. They can also serve as a primary hand to hand weapon, but spears have twice the weight and seem to have been longer. "Light" infantry would perhaps favour carrying veruta, and more of them. A bucket of plumbata could be useful at anytime.


Re: plumbata - Chilperic - 04-04-2008

Does anyone know (roughly!) how many plumbata have been found in the west - specifically the north-west (i.e. the Rhine provinces but also Britain)? The Wroxeter one(?s) I know about.

I have a hunch that the Rhine garrison units in the late period (by the late C4th) were using the throwing axe in a similar way, but alongside or as an alternative, I don't know.

Cheers,
Guy


Re: plumbata - John Conyard - 04-04-2008

I can think of examples of plumbata from Catterick (in our local museum) and Burgh Castle.

Burgh Castle also yielded two axes which show all the characteristics of early throwing axes. My axe weighs 475g, less than a spiculum. But the velocity of the axe is greater so it seems to carry a greater punch. I certainly wouldn't want to carry any more than two of these axes. I can't get great accuracy beyond 10m, but 20m is easily possible.

The throwing axe is another possible missile weapon for a pede, perhaps used at close range, and capable of causing a great deal of damage. It's not an alternative to a dart. But possibly it is an alternative to a spiculum.

Last summer I'll admit to throwing some axes from horseback. Accuracy went out of the window, and I spent so much time preparing my throw the horse added no speed to the weapon. All things considered I was pleased the horse still had a head at the end of the exercise. But plumbata are easily used from horseback and are a great versatile weapon.


Re: plumbata - Chilperic - 04-04-2008

That's interesting, John. Thanks. I always wondered about the practicality of using a francisca from horseback!

Guy


Re: plumbata - John Conyard - 04-04-2008

Reconstructive archaeology, no dead-end unexplored!

On Sunday there'll be six or seven Roman cavalrymen exploring various weapons and skills not so far from York. It's the day when Comitatus judge their riders for the coming year. Axes to kitchen sinks will be thrown at our poor bloody infantry. I'm smiling just thinking about it.....


Re: plumbata - Iagoba - 04-04-2008

Just one word:

MITE!:twisted:

Enjoy it! :wink:

(an write a loooong post with lots pictures, WE always want more :lol: )


Re: plumbata - Salvianus - 04-05-2008

Quote:plumbata are easily used from horseback and are a great versatile weapon.

They pack a heck of a punch direct from horseback Big Grin

When they smack into your shield they sound like a firework going off and I'm always concerned that I might not be covering my feet: I'm sure boot leather wouldn't be much use (and these are blunts). They seem to deliver more energy than veruta, but I'm not sure if that's just because of the solid tips: I wonder if we can test that?

I get the impression I might have the time to deflect a verutum, but the plumbata seems more akin to an arrow - too fast to dodge, one can only flinch. Confusedhock:


Plumbatae in GB - Davidus77 - 04-05-2008

When I was doing my Ph.D on Roman weapons, a few more years back than I care to recall, I noted the following finds in GB:

Burgh Castle (2)
Caernarvon (3)
Caerwent (1)
Catterick (2)
Doncaster (1)
Richborough (2)
Wroxeter (6)

A very incomplete survey of continental parallels threw up examples from Furfooz (in Belgium), Lauriacum & Weissenburg (both in Raetia), Lentia (in Noricum) and another in Weisbaden Museum. No doubt there's been more finds since.

It may be noted that the majority of the British finds are from non-legionary sites and the contexts (where dated) are mainly 4th-5th century.

Smile


Re: plumbata - John Conyard - 04-06-2008

That's useful, thank you.


Re: Plumbatae in GB - Robert Vermaat - 04-06-2008

Quote:Does anyone know (roughly!) how many plumbata have been found in the west - specifically the north-west (i.e. the Rhine provinces but also Britain)? The Wroxeter one(?s) I know about.

Ok, plumbata lists. I'm working on an article so forgive me if I do not spill too many beans here :? , but I can of course give you a list with places and numbers. In total I now know of 120 examples, published and unpublished. Most of these are from the western half of the empire, but I have the naggging impression that loads of examples from the Balkans are not (yet?) published. Apart from a few finds from georgia, no finds are reported from the Asian or African provinces. But maybe these are not yet recognised as such.

Quote:I noted the following finds in GB:

Burgh Castle (2)
Caernarvon (3)
Caerwent (1)
Catterick (2)
Doncaster (1)
Richborough (2)
Wroxeter (6)

A very incomplete survey of continental parallels threw up examples from Furfooz (in Belgium), Lauriacum & Weissenburg (both in Raetia), Lentia (in Noricum) and another in Weisbaden Museum. No doubt there's been more finds since.

It may be noted that the majority of the British finds are from non-legionary sites and the contexts (where dated) are mainly 4th-5th century.

List for the northwestern provinces:

Britain 26
Burgh Castle, Garriannonum, 2 ex.
Caernarfon, Segontium, 3 ex
Caerwent, Venta Silurum, 2 ex.
Catterick, Cataractonium, 2 ex.
Cirencester, Corinium Dobunnorum, 1 ex.
Doncaster, Danum, 1 ex.
Kenchester, Magnis, 3 ex.
Nettleton, 1 ex.
Richborough, Rutupiae, 2 ex.
Wroxeter, Viroconium Cornoviorum, 9 ex.

None from The Netherlands or Belgium.
Germany 4 (Wiesbaden Weissenberg, Mainz, Grünwald),
France 7 (Arras, Oedenburg, Königshofen, Strasbourg, Furfooz, Vermand),
Switzerland 3 (Augst, Windisch),
Liechtenstein 1 (Schaan),
Austria 4 (Bad Deutsch Altenburg, Linz, Lorch).

David, most UK examples are maybe from non-legionary sites, but Late Roman military sites are, after all, hard to define as legionary or non-legionary. The plumbata dates from a period when the military began to be organised between limitanei and comitatenses, and I would therefore rather say that most finds come from military sites or military-related sites, such as the towns.

Quote:When I was doing my Ph.D on Roman weapons, a few more years back than I care to recall

Not thát long ago, surely! Big Grin
Marchant, David (1990): Roman weapons in Great Britain, a case study: spearheads, problems in dating and typology, in: Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, vol. 1, pp. 1-6.
Marchant, David (1993): Spearheads from Segontium, in: P J Casey and J L Davies with J Evans: Excavations at Segontium (Caernarfon) Roman Fort, 1975-1997, CBA Research report 90, pp. 189, Fig.5, at: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/cba/rr90.cfm .