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Plumbata - Printable Version

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Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-06-2012

Hi Moi,

I'm not sure why you think that I don't trust (part of) the Wroxeter finds?


Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-06-2012

Quote:
Robert post=300331 Wrote:The points made by Tony look very different from the images of plumbata finds you sent me at the time. Are these based on a new find? They look great, by the way.
They are based on a find from Britain but even more from a new find from Serbia. The one from Britain (Wroxeter) I did not trust 100%, but the one from Serbia (unknown site) confirmed it. This model makes replacing a broken wooden shaft far easier (as Comitatus know for years), so I asked Tony for this model.

Hmmm, hard to figure really.... :-P


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-06-2012

Quote:
Robert Vermaat post=300333 Wrote:The one from Britain (Wroxeter) I did not trust 100%, but the one from Serbia (unknown site) confirmed it.
Hmmm, hard to figure really.... :-P
Ahhh, THAT one. I assumed it had to do with my map, which I just posted..
OK, easily explained! Several plumbatae finds are damaged. Sometimes the lead weight is missing, sometimes (Caerwent) the weight has moved over the point (force of impact no doubt). The Wroxeter one which I had some issues with, also showed a weight that was positioned on the iron hank. Whether this happened upon impact or by design was unknown to me. Only one other such 'lead-on'shank' plumbata existed, a very long and odd one from Croatia, which was not really comparable.

However, a second one turned up, this one made in Serbia, looking very much like the one from Wroxeter. This one made it clear that such designs, even though 90% of all plumabatae look different, were not uncommon.

So, recapitulating, I never said I distrusted the find, only wheteher the actual shape was a result of design or damage. Wink


Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-06-2012

That is very much like the Comitatus design.
I have photos of the Wroxeter ones somewhere, but haven't seen them
in a while!


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-06-2012

Quote: That is very much like the Comitatus design.{/quote] Very much so.

[quote="Gaius Julius Caesar" post=305901]I have photos of the Wroxeter ones somewhere, but haven't seen them in a while!
I will post images of both plumbatae later today.

Edit: here they are, top Wroxeter, bottom Serbia.
[attachment=2865]wroxeterserbia1.jpg[/attachment]


Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-06-2012

Cheers. Mine are slightly different iirc, but possibly I focused on the top one.


Re: plumbata - Vindex - 02-06-2012

Thank you both.


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Current toll:

30 from Serbia
28 from Britain
15 from Austria
14 from Slovenia
12 from France
9 from Hungary
8 from Croatia
8 from Italy
7 from Switzerland
5 from Germany
4 from Georgia/Abchasia
3 from Greece (possibly BC)
2 from Bulgaria
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
2 from Rumania
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia

(63 ones from doubtful or unprovenanced origins)

All known findspots:
[attachment=3028]plumbataemap2012-02-16.jpg[/attachment]


Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012

Interesting how they seem to beat a path from Britain to Constantinople!
No finds out side that belt?


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote:Interesting how they seem to beat a path from Britain to Constantinople!
No finds out side that belt?
It's only a belt when you're looking at it from space. Big Grin
When you zoom in, it falls apart in some major zones: the Limes mainly, then some hinterland defensive lines and routes through mountainous terrain. The ones from Greece are probably BC (but still listed because there's not been confirmation), the ones from Georgia/Abchasia are the only ones from Asia. Nothing known from Syria, nothing from Africa.


Re: plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-16-2012

Robert, I'm about 8 months late to the party on this one but is this the coin you are referring to?

EDIT: Sorry wrong picture, can't seem to find the one I wanted to post.


Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012

So they had them BC?
I thought these were not found in the earlier period?
Th other day you dismissed that site which had some interesting finds, because they had plumbata dated to 1st Cent AD?


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote: So they had them BC?
You're jumping to conclusions. They are still officially dated to the 6th c. AD, but one archaeologist has remarked that 2 of these dated to the High Archaic period (late 7th to mid-6th c. BC) and 1 from the Late Archaic period (after 550 BC). Which would still leave room for nr. 3, but even if this pans out, it's no news. Take for instance the cestosphendron, a slinging device which fung a weighted dart over large distances, all dating to the ?4th c. BC. Weighted darts were also used in bird-hunting. But indeed, the darts we know as plumbatae date to around the later 3rd c. AD and into the 6th.

Quote:I thought these were not found in the earlier period?
If you followed what I've written here over the past 8 years then yes, your conclusion is correct. :wink:

Quote:Th other day you dismissed that site which had some interesting finds, because they had plumbata dated to 1st Cent AD?
Indeed, and I still stand firmly behind that conclusion. Internet dealers often date them to the 1st or 2nd c. AD, because a) they are too lazy to read anything or b) because finds from the Principate sell better and for higher prices. Confusedad: Never blindly trust an internet seller of archaeological objects. :evil:


Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote:Robert, I'm about 8 months late to the party on this one but is this the coin you are referring to?
EDIT: Sorry wrong picture, can't seem to find the one I wanted to post.
I sure hope it won't take you another 8 months to find it? Big Grin


Re: plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-16-2012

Sorry Robert I had initially posted this one with Mars holding a spear with a weight at the end.

[attachment=3026]16004.jpg[/attachment]

This is the one I intended to post.

Solidus 347/350, Antioch. FL IVL CONSTAN - TIVS PERP AVG Cuirassed and helmeted bust facing, turned slightly to r., with spear and shield containing horseman device. Rev. GLORIA - REI - PVBLICAE Roma and Constantinopolis seated facing and holding shield inscribed VOT / XXX / MVLT / XXXX. SMANB–. 4,47 g. RIC 88. C. 112

[attachment=3027]175496.jpg[/attachment]

As you mentioned a very short "spear" with a terminal "ball" on the end. Most of these are shown with out the terminal end as if the spear continued off of the flan.