Plumbata - Printable Version

Plumbata - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Plumbata (/showthread.php?tid=1271)

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Re: plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-16-2012

Quote:Estiot sadly repeats some pieces of non-information about plumbatae (such as the test distances and the incident never mentioned by Procopius), but she also shows at least one clear example of a late-3rd centurty coin which not only clearly shows an areus of Maximianus (286 AD) on which the emperor holds a very short, barbed missile, according to Estiot WITH a weight.
More coins show the very short missiles, but are not detailed enough to show the weights (and Aitor was right: ‘no weights, no plumbata’). I must say however that this new one shifts my position a bit: at least the missiles are barbed, plus they are short (too short for a javelin), plus at least one could really show something that looks like a weight. The dating is early but OK (the terminus post quem for plumbatae is 274 AD).

Vortigern Studies post=76516 Wrote:Christodoulou refers to plumbatae on coins in his Gamzigrad article: "[..] Maximianus Herculius and Maximianus Daia are represented on coins each armed with three barbed javelins [..]"
There's an article about plumbtae shown on coins, that I have not read yet:
Boon, G.C. (1991): 'Martiobarbuli coins', in: The Antiquaries Journal 71, pp. 247-50.

Quote:Ango, spicula, verutum... :?
Not a plumbata, I think....
Aitor

Quote:When I look at these coins, what is the emperor carrying over his shoulder?

I wish it gave a reference number I could look up the exact coin.

Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Thanks for the coins Jay but indeed they were not the ones I was after - the emperors are hold much shorter spears, barbed even.

Re: plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-16-2012

Do you have a reference number? Like RIC (Roman Imperial coins). It would be easy enough to track down a picture.

Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Only a few:

RIC V.2 (Webb), 44/253 corr.
IIC V.2, 49/310 corr (same?)
RIC V.2, 234/140
RIC V.2, 277/500

RIC VI (Sutherland), 323/87
RIC VI, 323/98a
RIC VI, 323/98b

Re: plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-16-2012

Quote:Only a few:

RIC V.2 (Webb), 44/253 corr.
IIC V.2, 49/310 corr (same?)
RIC V.2, 234/140
RIC V.2, 277/500

RIC VI (Sutherland), 323/87
RIC VI, 323/98a
RIC VI, 323/98b

Those are ref# for Maximianus? I'll search!

Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote:Those are ref# for Maximianus? I'll search!

No, for a number of guys.

Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012

Thanks for the clarification on the BC post Robert.

Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

No problem Byron. It's my pet project after all. :wink:

Re: plumbata - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012

You have me curious now, though, as to what form the earlier launched darts were like! :roll:

Re: Plumbata - ValentinianVictrix - 02-16-2012

I would be very careful of using evidence of spear length from using images on coins as a basis. The size of the coin would have put severe limitations on what could be depicted, especially on coins that show the Emperor in military dress but only the head and shoulders. Much better to look at artwork and monumental works from the same period to check spear sizes in my opinion.

Re: plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote:You have me curious now, though, as to what form the earlier launched darts were like! :roll:

I'll see what I can dig up.

Re: Plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012

Quote:I would be very careful of using evidence of spear length from using images on coins as a basis. The size of the coin would have put severe limitations on what could be depicted, especially on coins that show the Emperor in military dress but only the head and shoulders. Much better to look at artwork and monumental works from the same period to check spear sizes in my opinion.

The same thing occurs when thrusting spears are longer than the funerary monumnet.

But in the case of plumbatae, IF they are plumbatae (and I doubt it), it would be interesting.

Re: Plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-17-2012

Robert, I didn't realize how rare those coins are! Here is a great article on the very coins you speak of with the "short spear" written by Curtis Clay :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=52001.0

After being unable to track down the coins I ended up asking for help. Curtis was kind enough to point me to his post above. Photos included. Hope this helps. I'm finding it very interesting as I've never seen these types before. I see no other reasonable explanation as to what they could be other than Plumbata.

[attachment=3029]115367.jpg[/attachment]

Re: Plumbata - Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012

Thanks Jay.

I'm not so sure that I agree with Estiot - on some coins, the weapon is clearly much too long for a plumbata, and probably either a barbed spear or a disfigured plumbatae (or the other way around)? The devil is in the details. :-?

Re: Plumbata - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 02-17-2012

Ah yes but the question is...why would the Emperor be shown holding multiple spears? Surely one is enough to depict a spear. One in his right and two or three in his left...what would be the point if they were all spears?