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What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Max_ - 06-14-2008
Did they use steel or iron?
The romans used iron in armor but i heard from some people their swords were steel, do you know anything?
thnx!
(just wonderin!)
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Matthew Amt - 06-14-2008
Ave!
Yes, the Romans definitely had and used steel. Bishop and Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment" has a section toward the end discussing metallurgy, and shows the analyses of several blades. Frequently there is an iron core, with steel edges forge-welded on. Sometimes the blade is more homogenous, for instance a low-grade steel or "steely iron", or something pretty close to modern mild steel (though with slag inclusions which modern steel doesn't have). It varied quite a bit!
Mind you, the Romans did not have separate words for iron and steel. But they did know that some metal was better than others, and how to work with what they had to get the best results.
By the way, the ironwork in a lorica segmentata plate was quite complex. They are usually harder on the outside and softer on the inside, and some are so uniform in thickness that they look like they were made by rolling rather than hammering. Fascinating stuff!
Vale,
Matthew
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Matt Lukes - 06-14-2008
One could consider Roman 'steel' to really be just carbon-contaminated iron since it wasn't homogeneous and had many different forms from well-mixed (perhaps from folding the way Japanese steel was classsically made), to simply a carburized outer surface. Some blades like the Fulham and Tiberius were indeed composites having fire-welded-on higher carbon edges with a low carbon iron body, and there's even a blade that's oddly low carbon on the outside and high in the middle (opposite to what seems ideal). Generally-speaking it's said that our mild steel (about 0.05%-0.25% carbon) is the closest to Roman steel.
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Marcus Mummius - 06-14-2008
About the segmentata plates. Wouldn't it be more likely that the surface is just carburised instead of the plates being a composition of two different iron alloy plates welded/forged together?
Vale,
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - arklore70 - 06-14-2008
Gents and Ladies,
here is a questions I get that normally I answer with a " I am not really sure".
Perhaps somebody can answer this, as I am guessing that I am not the only one that has been asked this.
How does a Roman gladius compare to a other medieval and Japanese blades? Was the quality better or worse?
I understand that design and the way some blades are made for different purposes and functionality, but how does Roman craftsmanship stack up in both blades and armor from a metallurgical standpoint?
Cheers,
Mike
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - caiusbeerquitius - 06-14-2008
Read
R. Pleiner, Zur Schmiedetechnik im römerzeitlichen Bayern, in: Bayerische Vorgeschichtsblätter 35, 1970.
Very interesting article with a lot of metallurgical analyses and information about forging techniques etc. A good read!
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - brennivs - tony drake - 06-14-2008
Nice thread
D Regards Brennivs
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Matt Lukes - 06-16-2008
Quote:How does a Roman gladius compare to a other medieval and Japanese blades? Was the quality better or worse?
Well I'd say they don't compare in the least to the latter- virtually nothing compares to a Japanese blade when it comes to quality. But for Medieval stuff, there's probably as much of a spectrum of quality there as there seems to have been for Roman blades- not always so awesome, but usually quite good. The few well-preserved gladii I've found images of do look nicely-made and clearly the composite nature of some shows they weren't just banged-out in a few minutes, but were well-made weapons.
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Martin Wallgren - 06-17-2008
Quote:arklore70:uz92tuj3 Wrote:How does a Roman gladius compare to a other medieval and Japanese blades? Was the quality better or worse?
Well I'd say they don't compare in the least to the latter- virtually nothing compares to a Japanese blade when it comes to quality. But for Medieval stuff, there's probably as much of a spectrum of quality there as there seems to have been for Roman blades- not always so awesome, but usually quite good. The few well-preserved gladii I've found images of do look nicely-made and clearly the composite nature of some shows they weren't just banged-out in a few minutes, but were well-made weapons.
Aehmm! Well, many of not most Medieval European swords do compare to Japanese swords. In fact they often have better quality. One have to consider that a Tachi or Katana is much thicker and also made in a very different way than a Longsword. In general the steel in Japan was of lower quality according to several modern scholars I´ve been in contact with, and that´s one of the main reasons for the construction of a japanese blade. In Europe we developed new steel making techniques that gave us much better control of the amount of carbon in the steel during the 11th century. This is also one of the main resons high medieval and late medieval swords don´t have the time consuming laminated features, they didn´t need it. I realize this was a bit of topic :wink: !
As how a Roman sword would stand up to a later period sword I belive it again is one of those red herrings. They stood up to what they where made to stand up to. As time draged on and armour and fighting styles changed so did the blades. This is also true in the discussion on Euroswords vs Asiaswords. But for the record I´d choose the longsword over the Katana anyday. The longsword is a much more versitile weapon. To back my claime i can say that I have trained 5 years of Iaido and Kenjutsu and I have as much experience with the longsword in the Liechtenauer tradition.
Gladii - Celer - 06-17-2008
Salve,
I've got to agree with Martin here.
Also it's a bit unfair comparing Roman swords from C1st AD with Japanese swords from 1500 years later. Compare Roman swords with indigenous Japanese swords from the same period and the Romans win hands down. Japanese-made swords from the C1st were very poor in quality - the finest blades were imported from Korea, and it is these swords that eventually evolved into the katana.
Vale,
Celer.
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Magnus - 06-18-2008
To a point Martin/Julian. The Japanese smiths used their lamination and folding techniques in order to create a homogenous steel. The end product wasn't lacking just because European smiths started out with better resources. Experienced japanese smiths (proof is in the modern smiths today) were able to accurately determine carbon contents in the smelted tamahagne, usually by inspecting it. If they couldn't, then they wouldn't be able to tell which lump of steel was for the core, and which was for the outer jacket.
In terms of engineering and workmanship, there isn't a weapon out there that can compete with a katana. Even a low ranking samurai's blade was well constructed with multiple craftsmen.
In terms of performance, I'd say any weapon performs within a certain degree of another, it's usually up to the person wielding it.
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Wander - 06-19-2008
Hi, I'm new here, but not new to this sort of topic. I'll gladly defer to those who've studied these things more than I, but I think I have some contributions that may be of interest. I've done several years of amateur blacksmithing, both with gas and traditional coal forges, and I'm fairly familiar with steel.
First, with all due respect to the katana, it's important not to underestimate the quality achieved by European swordsmiths -- and I'm talking much earlier than the Renaissance. Dr. Jim Hrisoulas, a metallurgist and one of the best-known swordsmiths in America (author of "The Complete Bladesmith," "The Master Bladesmith," and "Artistry in Steel: The Pattern-Welded Blade"), once told me that the Viking sword was technically the equal of the katana, in terms of sophistication and metallurgy. This was the sword made in the 7th-10th centuries, and in turn it's closely related to the Anglo-Saxon swords (of what was almost the same culture). If you're familiar with the sword from the Sutton Hoo ship burial (from the 6th century, if I recall; it's now in the British Museum) it showed exquisite artistry in its pattern-welding technique -- X-rays reveal an alternating herringbone pattern, crossing from one side of the blade to the other as the billet was twisted during forging. This was duplicated for the museum by an American bladesmith named Scott Lankton, back in the 1980s.
And the Anglo-Saxon culture was only a few centuries off from their Romano-British predecessors. I'm not asserting that the Romans were forging pattern-welded gladii or spathas -- there's no evidence to support that -- but we need to acknowledge that, just a few centuries later, there was some VERY sophisticated bladesmithing going on in a former Roman province.
For what it's worth (and I can't document this; it's admittedly hearsay) an old master blacksmith once told me of a case-hardening method (hardening the outer surface of steel) by burying a piece of steel in horse manure (!) for several weeks. He said carbon would migrate into the surface. I know, it might be a load of horsesh*t, but it would be easily available to bladesmiths in Roman times (or almost anyone else).
Just food for thought.
Wayne Anderson/Wander
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Wander - 06-19-2008
Also, there's more to the question than simple metallurgy. Swords have always evolved based on their use. Samurai battles generally broke into a series of individual duels, with plenty of space to swing a big sword. The gladius was designed to be wielded in the tight press of close-quarters combat between armies packed almost shoulder to shoulder, after the spears and pila had broken the enemy's line. In tight quarters a short sword is far easier to wield than a long one, and much faster.
The katana is straight enough to thrust effectively, but it's primarily a cutting weapon. The gladius was capable of cutting and chopping, but in battle the quickest, most lethal technique was usually thrusting.
Finally, in terms of esthetics, I'd immediately give the prize to the katana. Much more effort went into its construction, its furnishings, and its polish, than you'd ever find in most European swords.
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - Wander - 06-19-2008
Finally, I'm intrigued by the idea of, say, 80 samurai taking on a century of veteran legionnaires, if we take projectile weapons out of the picture and stick to close combat. One on one, I suspect the Japanese would cut the Romans to ribbons. But if the Romans are fighting in formation, I'm guessing their formation tactics would overmatch the samurai.
Roman dicsipline vs. Japanese fearlessness. Any ideas?
Re: What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of? - brennivs - tony drake - 06-19-2008
Wander the Romans did have Pattern welded blades, but was rare to actually to be used by them. The finds tend to be in the lands bordering the empire, With some baring Roman smith marks. These tend to date from late 2nd AD onwards although the technique is knowen earlier. The Romans were mass producing Iron so much so that an average percentage of a bloom throwen away with iron still useable in it. If memory serves right is 50-70%. In Cumbria around Furness and Lancashire over the border, Vikings were resmelting Roman Iron Slag heaps as there was so much Iron still in it. As the Romans had this production of Iron there was no real need for them to make a pattern welded blade for general issue for the army, But probably was a private purchase item on a small scale.I have scanned a article on pattern welded blades done by my friend in 1953 on a experimented blade he made, were he used pigeon droppings as part of a mix used in tempering the blade. Again this is great stuff keep it comeing
D D Regards Brennivs