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+--- Thread: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. (/showthread.php?tid=13295)
Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 08-01-2008
Im watching a Time Team episode about the ancient greeks, and its talking about Syracuse and its nearly imprenetrable walls.
It says the walls were lined with catapults, ballistas, scorpios, oversized bows and so on. But it also mentions a large 'claw like' crane the defenders used to drag enemy ships into the rocks. There was also a mention of a sort of mirror weapon, which used hundreds of bronze shield to set enemy ships and sails alight.
An experiment conducted actually did set the small trireme model on fire, but I think it was deceiving. Although only one hundred mirrors were used, they were the size of the ship itself. Although the walls could have had many more than 100 defenders and their shields, their size balanced this.
So what of this is true and what is speculation? I know the catapults and so on are true, but what about this ''crane''? Was it a land-based corvus which just went straight through ships? And what about the mirrors? Myth reconstructed through modern optimism?
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - Tarbicus - 08-01-2008
Quote:So what of this is true and what is speculation? I know the catapults and so on are true, but what about this ''crane''? Was it a land-based corvus which just went straight through ships?
Archimedes was a genius with levers and leverage. He apparently didn't invent the lever, but he was the first to understand and explain the principle mathematically.
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/7-30-2004-57259.asp
http://www.school-for-champions.com/bio ... imedes.htm
All it would need would be for the ships to get close enough. I see no reason why the story of the claw being able to lift ships from the water couldn't be done, with the right engineering.
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 08-01-2008
Thanks Tarbicus,
Interesting read.
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-01-2008
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 688#209688
I found this very interesting!
Also there is another documentary on youtube of the series "What the ancients did for us :the Greeks" there you'll see a recontruction of the mirrors. 100 little mirrors could set fire to a small model at some distance.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - Jona Lendering - 08-01-2008
Quote:http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=209688#209688... except of course that this is something never done by Archimedes. The story of the mirrors is not mentioned in any ancient source and surfaces for the first time in the Paradoxographia of the Byzantine author Anthemius of Tralles.
I found this very interesting!
Also there is another documentary on youtube of the series "What the ancients did for us :the Greeks" there you'll see a recontruction of the mirrors. 100 little mirrors could set fire to a small model at some distance.
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 08-02-2008
Quote:... except of course that this is something never done by Archimedes. The story of the mirrors is not mentioned in any ancient source and surfaces for the first time in the Paradoxographia of the Byzantine author Anthemius of Tralles.
And like I said before, the mirrors used in the 'experiment' were the size of the boat itself, and therefore not 'like the bronze shields of the defenders' as Time Team claimed.
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - sitalkes - 08-02-2008
Mythbusters tried to emulate all of Archimedes' feats. They got the ship crane to work but not the mirrors. They got so many responses to the first programme that they did the mirror thing again, using different designs. They still couldn't ignite their boat until they covered it with extremely flammible material. You can see it on DVD if you haven't seen the show. http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythb ... sters.html
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - D B Campbell - 08-02-2008
Quote:There was also a mention of a sort of mirror weapon, which used hundreds of bronze shield to set enemy ships and sails alight. ... So what of this is true and what is speculation? ... what about the mirrors? Myth reconstructed through modern optimism?We did this one before, Yuri. Have a look -- I know you'll find it interesting.
Quote:... except of course that this is something never done by Archimedes.And Jona is quite right. Whether or not it's possible to set ships on fire using mirrors is irrelevant. The fact is that Archimedes didn't do it!
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 08-02-2008
Quote:MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS:3cgr6g7a Wrote:There was also a mention of a sort of mirror weapon, which used hundreds of bronze shield to set enemy ships and sails alight. ... So what of this is true and what is speculation? ... what about the mirrors? Myth reconstructed through modern optimism?We did this one before, Yuri. Have a look -- I know you'll find it interesting.
Quote:... except of course that this is something never done by Archimedes.And Jona is quite right. Whether or not it's possible to set ships on fire using mirrors is irrelevant. The fact is that Archimedes didn't do it!
Thanks Duncan,
Interesting discussion. How do we know he didnt actually do it?
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - D B Campbell - 08-02-2008
Quote:How do we know he didnt actually do it?As Jona explained, the story suddenly pops up hundreds of years later. None of our reliable contemporary sources has the slightest hint of it, which is more than a little suspicious.
Philip Rance has a plausible explanation for why the story suddenly arose, but I can't remember the details! :oops: Now, if they'd only publish the Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Hellenistic Warfare, we'd all be a lot wiser!
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 08-02-2008
Perhaps seeing as it was the romans attacking they may have ommited it for propaganda purposes? Being initially defeated by a weapon of superior technology that was not invented by themselves?
Just a thought....
Re: Syracuse, Archimedes and its walls. - Jona Lendering - 04-18-2009
I've found a source that may be behind Anthemius' account: Galen, On Temperaments 3.2. Galen, never tired of telling tall stories, is describing how houses can suddenly catch fire, and adds that "they say that this is how Archimedes, using pyreia, could set fire to enemy ships". Note that the Romans are not mentioned -it may refer to all kinds of enemies- and note that pyreia means "candlesticks", not burning mirrors.
Another, almost equally old source is Lucian, Hippias 2, where he likens Archimedes' fire-throwing to enemy ships to a technical feat that is impossible: diverting the course of the Nile to capture Memphis. It is probably one of Lucian's lovely inventions, like those non-existing historians he quotes in How to write history.
So, I am again left with the idea that the burning mirror story is a Byzantine fairy tale; a summary can be found here.