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Roman pizza? - richsc - 12-02-2008
In the current Pompeii exhibit at the US National Gallery of Art, there is a translation of the word "offellae" as pizza. I'm not sure how they got this, and some of their other remarks seem more like art curators than historians. I can't seem to find an translation of offellae as pizza, except maybe in the sense of fast food? Anyone know any references on this?
Re: Roman pizza? - Jona Lendering - 12-02-2008
I remember having seen a little knife from an Etruscan tomb (museum of Arrezo??), which they said was a pizza knife and did indeed look like one. So i think that the pizza can indeed have been a Roman kind of food, although the word is Turkish.
Come to think of it, one of the great mysteries in world history: how is it possible that the Italians, who simply are the incarnation of civilization and refined cuisine, can have invented such a barbarous dish as the pizza?
Re: Roman pizza? - Tarbicus - 12-02-2008
Quote:Come to think of it, one of the great mysteries in world history: how is it possible that the Italians, who simply are the incarnation of civilization and refined cuisine, can have invented such a barbarous dish as the pizza?Jona, you're Dutch, I'm English. How would we know good cuisine unless it's deep fried anyway?
:wink:
Roman Pizza - Paullus Scipio - 12-02-2008
....apparently neither of you has tasted good pizza ( which can be a gastronomic delight ) :lol: :lol: :lol:
As fast delicious convenience food, it ranks with some of my other favourites ....Sushi, the Sandwich,Empanadas, the Hamburger, the Cornish pasty, Chinese Dim Sum....etc - all can be exquisite food, as witnessed by their popularity around the world....YUM!
D As to Roman origins, flat breads with toppings on are not unknown, IIRC, but of course the classic pizza tomato based sauce was unknown....
Re: Roman pizza? - Lepidina - 12-02-2008
I remember back at university, I saw a "Roman pizza" on a cooking show. The crust was mashed chick peas and the toppings were feta cheese, black olives, and spinach. I don't know how period the recipe was but all those foods are period so Romans could have had something like that. I made it a few times and it was way yummy and not that hard to do.
Re: Roman pizza? - A_Volpe - 12-02-2008
wha? Aww man you got some bad pizza.
Yeah there is a bunch of bleh pizza here in the States, but there IS a thing as Really Good Pizza.
Depends on how well it's cooked, what's put on it, and the quality of that stuff.
Damn, I must go for pizza at least once a week
Soul Food Baby!
Re: Roman pizza? - jpvdgiessen - 12-03-2008
Quote: I can't seem to find an translation of offellae as pizza, except maybe in the sense of fast food? Anyone know any references on this?
The name "pizza" appears firs in 1935, from It. pizza, originally "cake, tart, pie," of uncertain origin. Klein suggests a connection with M.Gk. pitta "cake, pie," from Gk. pitta "pitch." See also pita. Pizzeria is attested from 1943, likely in use in Amer.Eng. from 1930s. ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pizza )
See also offa = fetta (?): 1956, from Mod.Gk. (tyri) pheta, from tyri "cheese" + pheta, from It. fetta "a slice," from L. offa "a morsel, piece." ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetta )
Re: Roman pizza? - Carlton Bach - 12-04-2008
I have never seen anything like a credible recipe for ofellae, but medieval recipes for ofelle (probably at least etymologically related) are more like pies or tarts than pizzas.
Chances are that this is one of those leaps of faith so depressingly common in culinary history. Amn ofella was probably some kind of baked food and it could have been a bit like a pizza. But we probably can't be sure.
Re: Roman pizza? - Dardanus Lupus - 04-28-2009
Martin Maiden, professor of romance languages, attributes pizza to Old High German! I would rather press the connection with turkish pida, aramaic pitta and modern piadini. Also, some kinds of "pizza" (without tomatoes, of course) seems to have been eaten in Southern Italy as early as 997 AD.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/pizza.html
Re: Roman pizza? - Narukami - 04-29-2009
Funny, I did not think this was an open question anymore. Except for the tomato sauce the ancient Romans made flat bread "pies" topped with cheese and all manner of tasty delights, or so I thought.
Of course now, most inconveniently, I can not remember where I read that.
Perhaps it all depends upon just how you define "pizza."
Now I can not vouch for the veracity of this sight or the information it contains but I offer it up for your ingestion and digestion... so to speak... :|
http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/ ... istory.htm
Oh... and just because they put pineapple on it does not make it Hawaiian.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Roman pizza? - Epictetus - 04-29-2009
Well, I guess it depends on how exactly we would define a "pizza." We know that the Romans could be quite ingenious when it comes to using flour and the different uses of bread.
Quote:You would never be able to enumerate all the different qualities of wheaten flour, or its uses, seeing that both baker and cook apply it in many different ways.
Marital, Epigrams XIII, X
We also know that cheese was placed on a bread crust of sorts (which I suppose is what I think of when I imagine "pizza"):
Quote:Then moisten the 2 pounds of flour, knead, and make of it a thin lower crust. Soak 14 pounds of sheep's cheese (sweet and quite fresh) in water and macerate, changing the water three times. Take out a small quantity at a time, squeeze out the water thoroughly with the hands, and when it is quite dry place it in a bowl. When you have dried out the cheese completely, knead it in a clean bowl by hand, and make it as smooth as possible. Then take a clean flour sifter and force the cheese through it into the bowl. Add 4 1/2 pounds of fine honey, and mix it thoroughly with the cheese. Spread the crust on a clean board, one foot wide, on oiled bay leaves, and form the placenta as follows: Place a first layer of separate tracta over the whole crust, cover it with the mixture from the bowl, add the tracta one by one, covering each layer until you have used up all the cheese and honey.
Cato, On Agriculture 76
Note that Cato seems to be using a type of "grated" cheese! If he forces the cheese through a flour sifter it will come out in thin strips much as we use on pizzas, I think. He also puts a crust on top, which is interesting.
Edit: It looks like that link you posted, Narukami, also discusses Cato's "pizza recipe."
Re: Roman pizza? - Eleatic Guest - 05-01-2009
Pizza isn't actually particularly old..a late 19th century dishes. Interestingly, the US American variety is almost as old, being imported from Italy soon after its invention. There is also a Alsatian / Palatinate 'pizza' from the very early 1900s at the very least, called 'Flammkuchen'. I even wonder whether the Flammkuchen actually preceded the Pizza *sacrilege*.
Re: Roman pizza? - PMBardunias - 05-04-2009
Quote:See also offa = fetta (?): 1956, from Mod.Gk. (tyri) pheta, from tyri "cheese" + pheta, from It. fetta "a slice," from L. offa "a morsel
I believe you are using this word incorrectly. We NY Italians use this word all the time, as in "Hey,Tony, slice'a me offa some'a Pizza!