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Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-22-2009
On p13 of the latest Ancient Warfare Mag, 2 lanciarii are depicted. I'm keen to find the source for the shield design on the right hand one (a red background with golden organic forms?), and whether it corresponds to a specific unit.
Could anyone shed any light, please?
Thanks
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Praefectusclassis - 01-23-2009
Hi Simon
Christian (Koepfer, Caiustarquitius here on RAT) tells me he advised Johnny on all elements in the picture, apart from the shield design. I'll forward your question to Johnny as well.
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-23-2009
Hi Jasper,
That is very much appreciated! I have seen the pattern before, but can't place it, or find it in my literature.
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Johnny Shumate - 01-23-2009
I can't remember right off hand, but I think I used Peter Connolly or Angus McBride for reference...I may have seen it on Trajan's column....
Johnny
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-23-2009
Thanks, Johnny.
It is a puzzler; I recently bought a unit of 2 dozen nicely painted 28mm A&A Romans figures on eBay with a very similar shield design, and I'm very keen to know if they depict a named unit, or at least find the original source of the design. It is possible they may have been copied from your illustration, but they have some additional detail which suggests not.
I've looked through my Roman Ospreys and my Connelly "Rome and Greece at War", and can't see them there. I'm scrathing my head! Please let me know if it comes back to you.
BTW I really enjoy your excellent artwork!
Cheers, Simon
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Johnny Shumate - 01-23-2009
I think it is in the book by Concord publishing,"Imperial Rome at War".....
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Gäiten - 01-23-2009
Quote:I think it is in the book by Concord publishing,"Imperial Rome at War".....
Yes, there it is displayed (in a scene where 3rd century Legionaires and Lanciarii are fighting against Parthian or Sassanian Horse Archers).
BTW because equipment of 3rd century Romans is discussed.
I have been wondering about the Roman use of scale coifs as armor protection for the head (nevertheless the artwork for the cataphracts is fantastic).
Are there more sources that the Romans really used such coifs (besides Dura Europos, a certain 3rd century Legionary grave stele (forgot the exact description) and the Vergilius Vaticane depiction)?
Somewhere (I do not know the source anymore) I read that kind of protection was more common among contemporary Eastern powers (as to the Chineses, Parthians, Arabians and Sassanians).
Ask that question in the AW forum, however, so far have not got an answer
Best regards
Andreas
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - caiusbeerquitius - 01-23-2009
Quote:Christian (Koepfer, Caiustarquitius here on RAT) tells me he advised Johnny on all elements in the picture, apart from the shield design.The main problem was that due to a technical misunderstanding the picture was basically finished, before I could "advise". Johnny put a lot effort into changing what was possible in a very short time (we only had a few hours left for changes before the press was starting), so credits to him! The next cooperation will result in an even more authentic picture.
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-23-2009
Thanks Johnny, that's really useful. It's a pity it is such an expensive book, or I'd be straight off for a copy, because from the reviews it sounds very good! I don't suppose someone could look at the key and let me know what it says about the shield, pretty please?
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Graham Sumner - 01-23-2009
Hi
Quote:Thanks Johnny, that's really useful. It's a pity it is such an expensive book, or I'd be straight off for a copy, because from the reviews it sounds very good! I don't suppose someone could look at the key and let me know what it says about the shield, pretty please?
There is nothing about the shield design in the book picture caption but then it is not that kind of publication anyway and in any case I would not use it as a primary source! You need Simon James's Dura Europos book for that.
Most likely the design in the Concord book was simply copied of Trajan's Column, which is not surprising as it is not as easy to find a wide selection of third century shield designs. If that is the case then it is also possible the design is not correct for that period. Ironically the correct well known rear face shield design is also shown in the same painting and that is based on the find from Dura.
I used that shield design myself in an earlier illustration of Lanciarii in Ross Cowan's article in AW. The other shield design in that illustration was based on a contemprary tombstone from Apamea although the colours used were hypothetical. The problem as an artist is that you have to show something but unless you have a lot of time available or access to a good university library it is not easy.
Graham.
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-23-2009
Thanks Graham.
I looked in the Barker Armies and Enemies, which has a lot of the Trajan shield designs in it, and couldn't see it there. I think that Dura Europos may indeed be the place to go. Assuming that the original illo wasn't just made up...
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Graham Sumner - 01-24-2009
Quote:I looked in the Barker Armies and Enemies, which has a lot of the Trajan shield designs in it, and couldn't see it there. I think that Dura Europos may indeed be the place to go. Assuming that the original illo wasn't just made up...
On the whole the Dura shield designs are more complex but James' book would be the source for practically all other equipment of that era.
However if you have already looked at the Trajan's column shield designs in Barker the next source to look at would be the shields on the column of Marcus Aurelius, the shield designs there tend to be a lot simpler that those on TC. However Barker's xxxvii and xl are quite close to what you are after. I do not have Rossi's book on TC to hand but I have heard that some of his TC shield designs are slightly different to Barker's, perhaps someone here can confirm or deny that and maybe one of the two above might be represented differently in his book.
Graham.
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - Paullus Scipio - 01-24-2009
It was I who prepared the original sketches for the Barker book. These were all taken from the excellent plaster cast setting out the whole column at eye level in the Museo del'civilita Romana in Rome.( where I spent many happy hours sketching every single shield design extant ).
This was because Phil's previous book had tended to rely on the Rossi designs which are hopelessly incorrect, or rather badly drawn as to correct style etc
Re: Roman Shield Design in Ancient Warfare Vol II Issue 6 - BigRedBat - 01-24-2009
Hi Graham,
Thanks that is very useful. xxxvii in Barker does indeed look very much like the shield- I'd seen it and gone straight past it. It looks even more like the shields on my figures, than the ones in AW!
Paullus, great sketching work! A&E is such a useful book.
Thanks everyone for your help.