Quote: Instead of criticising others, perhaps you would be good enough to offer up another interpretation of what occurred.......I note you have ignored the questions I posed earlier.... :lol: :lol:

Quote:But Langarus, king of the Agrianians, who, in the lifetime of Philip, had been an open and avowed friend of Alexander, and had gone on an embassy to him in his private capacity, at that time also came to him with the finest and best armed of the shield-bearing troops, which he kept as a body-guard.

Quote: it is not clear here whether "Hetaroi" refers to the Mounted "Companions" or the "Pez-hetaroi/Foot-Companions" but the context would appear to be the latter;( they are launched against the Phalanx) the Agrianes and Balacrus' Thracian javelin-men are clearly light Infantry, referred to elsewhere as well.

Note that the scythed chariots are launched against the Phalanx, and that they are opposed by the light Infantry screen.

Quote:Next to the royal squadron on the right wing, half of the Agrianians, under the command of Attalus, in conjunction with the Macedonian archers under Briso’s command, were posted angular-wise in case they should be seized anyhow by the necessity of deepening the phalanx, or of closing up the ranks. Next to the archers were the men called the veteran mercenaries, whose commander was Cleander. In front of the Agrianians and archers were posted the light cavalry used for skirmishing, and the Paeonians, under the command of Aretes and Aristo. In front of all had been posted the Grecian mercenary cavalry under the direction of Menidas; and in front of the royal squadron of cavalry and the other Companions had been posted half of the Agrianians and archers, and the javelin-men of Balacrus who had been ranged opposite the scythe-bearing chariots.

Quote:Paullus Scipio wrote: it is not clear here whether "Hetaroi" refers to the Mounted "Companions" or the "Pez-hetaroi/Foot-Companions" but the context would appear to be the latter;( they are launched against the Phalanx) the Agrianes and Balacrus' Thracian javelin-men are clearly light Infantry, referred to elsewhere as well.

Note that the scythed chariots are launched against the Phalanx, and that they are opposed by the light Infantry screen.


Not at all: it is abundantly clear that Companion Cavalry is intended.

As I wrote earlier the Agrianes are not posted in front of the phalanx. There is no need to attempt to extrapolate from Arrian’s battle description the whereabouts of the Agrianes for he makes very plain where Alexander placed them (3.12.1 ff):
Next to the royal squadron on the right wing, half of the Agrianians, under the command of Attalus, in conjunction with the Macedonian archers under Briso’s command, were posted angular-wise in case they should be seized anyhow by the necessity of deepening the phalanx, or of closing up the ranks. Next to the archers were the men called the veteran mercenaries, whose commander was Cleander. In front of the Agrianians and archers were posted the light cavalry used for skirmishing, and the Paeonians, under the command of Aretes and Aristo. In front of all had been posted the Grecian mercenary cavalry under the direction of Menidas; and in front of the royal squadron of cavalry and the other Companions had been posted half of the Agrianians and archers, and the javelin-men of Balacrus who had been ranged opposite the scythe-bearing chariots.


The hetairoi referred to are clearly and unequivocally the Companion Cavalry and not pezhetairoi as your stretch of the source material would have it. It is evident that Darius’ intention was to neutralise or seriously hamper the Macedonian strike weapon – the Companion Cavalry and its king. Alexander prepared his dispositions accordingly. That the line of these chariots also stretched far enough toward the Persian centre so as to charge the far right of phalanx is correct. Arrian explicitly states that these were dealt with by the grooms and the rear ranks of the hypaspists (who had made way for them as instructed).
• Paralus|Michael Park

Quote:… perhaps you would be good enough to offer up another interpretation of what occurred.

Quote:We need not quibble as to the posting of the light infantry too much – it is clear from all the sources (and their numbers) that the light infantry screen stretched across part at least of the phalanx, that the Chariots were tackled and largely stopped by the light infantry/javelin -men, but that some at least made it to the phalanx, where they were let through by the opening of gaps……perhaps Hetairoi here means generically both Mounted and Foot companions?

Quote:Interestingly, we don’t hear in any of our sources of the scythed chariots going up against the Mounted Companions….only the Phalanx…..

Quote:Perhaps Darius intended the scythed chariots to disrupt Alexander's Mounted Companions, but his oblique rightward movement took them clear of the chariot lanes....it is suggestive that the Agrianes and archers directly in front of the Mounted Companions don't seem to have taken part,

Quote:Meantime the foreigners launched their scythe-bearing chariots against Alexander himself, for the purpose of throwing his phalanx into confusion; but in this they were grievously deceived. For as soon as they approached, the Agrianians and the javelin-men with Balacrus, who had been posted in front of the Companion cavalry, hurled their javelins at some of the horses; others they seized by the reins and pulled the drivers off, and standing round the horses killed them.

Quote:Rather than continue to "hijack" this thread...

Quote: 'Hypaspist' does indeed translate literally as 'aspis-bearer', or more generically as 'shield-bearer', but NOT 'servant'.

Quote:Xenophônta de ho hupaspistês echôn tên aspida apelipen

Xenophon found himself deserted by the servant who was carrying his shield

Quote:Xenophônta de ho hupaspistês echôn tên aspida apelipen

Xenophon found himself deserted by the servant who was carrying his shield

You may well need to rethink that dogmatic stance unless this was a stray Macedonian "aspis bearer" ahead of his time.

Quote: This is simply a "chicken and egg" translation problem. The word used is 'hyp-aspist'=shield -bearer, not the generic word for 'servant'...there are over 40 words in the ancient Greek lexicon for, or that relate, to 'servant', but "hyp-aspist" is not one of them ! The translator in this case simply did not want to sound clumsy by the more literal; “shield bearer”

Quote: Being even more pedantic, the correct word for shield-bearer in Attic dialect is 'hyperetes'... = military/Hoplite's baggage carrier/shield carrier)- who might also carry the Hoplite's shield among other things!

Quote:Hellenica, 4.5.15
toutous men ekeleuon tous hupaspistas aramenous apopherein eis Lechaion

they directed the shield-bearers to take up these wounded men and carry them back to Lechaeum


Ibid, 4.8.39
kai taut' elege kai para tou hupaspistou labôn tên aspida en chôrai autou machomenos apothnêiskei

Thus he spoke, and taking his shield from his shieldbearer, fell fighting on that spot.

Quote:2. We are NEVER told that Hoplites actually fought "8 deep" or "12 deep" etc - Xenophon speaks of 'battle formation' 4 deep....

Quote:Anabasis, 1.2.15:
He ordered the Greeks to form their lines and take their positions just as they were accustomed to do for battle, each general marshalling his own men. So they formed the line four deep

Quote:Anabasis, 7.1.22-23:
Then he proceeded to pass along this order himself and bade the others send it on--to ground their arms in battle line. The men acted as their own marshals, and within a short time the hoplites had fallen into line eight deep and the peltasts had got into position on either wing.

Quote:Paullus Scipio wrote:
This is simply a "chicken and egg" translation problem. The word used is 'hyp-aspist'=shield -bearer, not the generic word for 'servant'...there are over 40 words in the ancient Greek lexicon for, or that relate, to 'servant', but "hyp-aspist" is not one of them ! The translator in this case simply did not want to sound clumsy by the more literal; “shield bearer”

If the fellow described in Anabasis is not a slave then you are suggesting he is a paid free man whose task it is to carry Xenophon’s arms?

Quote:All describe a person performing the duty of the “squire” (for want of a better word).

Quote:'Hypaspist' means specifically shield-bearer, sometimes in the sense of 'squire', not generic 'servant'.....

Quote:

Quote:All describe a person performing the duty of the “squire” (for want of a better word).

I wrote:

Quote:'Hypaspist' means specifically shield-bearer, sometimes in the sense of 'squire', not generic 'servant'.....

We are in broad agreement, I see..... :wink: D

Quote:All describe a person performing the duty of the “squire” (for want of a better word). I would imagine that such duties were not performed by the free citizenry of Athens but rather by slaves.

Quote: 'Battle order' or 'the order in which they meant fight' refers to dispositions - which unit stood next to which.......

Quote: Xenophon speaks of 'battle formation' 4 deep....