Quote:This can be a retaining barrier, but it can also be other people in a crowd. ...this is where we differ! Unlike an inanimate immovable object, people generally can and do move, and psychology/fear prevents the deliberate 'crushing' of the front of one crowd against another...in this instance I would venture to suggest that the leading ranks of Hoplites would push back against their own side rather than be propelled forward onto the spearpoints of their opponents!

Quote:....but it is clear that the wall/barrier plays a key role in every case, for without it the conditions necessary simply don't occur - as you say, people free to move do!

Quote:I agree with you that something of this sort probably occurred at Cannae, and other battles too - there are rare instances described of the crowd being 'dense' enough that the dead can't fall. This is not however a regular occurrence, deliberately brought about, as you envisage. It occurs accidently, and rarely enough to be commented on, not something deliberately done.

Quote:.....once again, your examples involve 'crowds' in constrained circumstances, and I am not aware of crowds confronting one another on a street generating sufficient force to cause Mass Casualties. Could you be more specific?

Quote:You agree, I think, that initially the two phalanxes would be divided by a short ( the length of the spears! ) 'no man's land', and that spear fencing and thrusting took place (doratissimos) Just how does that convert to your 'othismos' of two 'shield walls' shoving? Mutual consent?

Quote:How is this 'shoving' co-ordinated along a line a thousand yards long?

Quote:Isn't it more likely that, assuming both sides were willing to fight, they "charged", spontaneously stopped at spear-fighting distance and fought in groups alternately attacking and withdrawing to catch their breath, so that the 'battle-front' seethed and writhed until one sides 'will to fight' wavered, through casualties and/or morale? ( We see similar fighting in modern riots, sometimes lasting hours, just like ancient battles).

Quote:I am not saying that no physical 'shoving' ever took place, just that it was more likely to be spontaneous and localised to small groups or individuals seeking to 'break' the line rather than some mass co-ordinated shove by thousands of men acting as a thousand yard long human bulldozer. I believe your idea would fall down on that point alone ! The pressure could not possibly be even all along the front.

Quote:Asking if there is an example of two groups of people in an open field who crashed into each other like lethal crowds is a bit like asking for an example of pedestrians bumping into each other on the street and breaking out into a full-blown Sumo pushing match. They surely could do it, but why would they? Put the same two guys trying to push through a narrow door in a burning building and you will see lots of pushing.

...have you not just handily demonstrated that some sort of physical constraint is needed to produce what you envisage?

Quote:A Hoplite battle on an open battlefield has no such constraints. Any attempt by part of the formation to 'squeeze' others would simply result in equal and opposite resistance. Without a 'wall' or similar there is nothing to push against. No huge forces, just a crowd packed like sardines trying to shuffle forward and impale their front line officers on their opponents spears, and you can bet that in such a situation the front couple of ranks would be 'pushing' alright - back against those behind them !!!

Quote:Surely you have demolished your own case ! If the front ranks aren't being propelled forward by the mass force of those behind and can't be knocked forward, then there is no pressure on them, just as in the car analogy you describe there is no pressure on the cars in front. But perhaps what you really mean is that each rank begins 'shoving' gradually, until all are, and disengage similarly, so that the build-up or die-down of your postulated shove is gradual. If so, as I suggested, the front ranks, being all too human will resist and push back !

Quote:This is not that difficult. You and I are hoplites on a battle field. My spear breaks so I decided to move in shield to shield and luckily evade your dory thrust. We are now shield to shield and trying to push each other back while stabbing. You start to push me back until Giannis puts his aspis against my back, then Michael sees you stopped and starting to give way, so he pushes you from behind as well. You are distracted by something he is saying about Alexander's deployment, and so do not notice Christan coming up in support of Giannis until you start moving back a step at a time. Luckily for you, George backs up Michael and we push at each other ineffectively.

Quote:.....This is something of an assumption on your part, he does not omit the dimoirites/half-file leader,

Quote:You are also in a minority regarding the Phalanx having 'Half-file Leaders' - Connolly, Sekunda, Devine and many others all posit, like me, that Alexander's Phalanx had 'Half' and 'Quarter' file leaders.

Quote:

Quote:Anab, 7.22-23:

Then he proceeded to pass along this order himself and bade the others send it on--to ground their arms in battle line. [23] The men acted as their own marshals, and within a short time the hoplites had fallen into line eight deep and the peltasts had got into position on either wing.

The troops here are in a town (Byzantium) and are told to 'fall in' in their 'normal/proper' formations for a Parade and address by Xenophon in a paved square, and naturally they form up in files in 'normal/open' order, eight deep. They are not about to meet a foe, forming up in the last stages of an advance.Elsewhere, Xenophon tells us that for a fight they stood four deep i.e. 'half files' in close order. D

Quote: You start to push me back until Giannis puts his aspis against my back, then Michael sees you stopped and starting to give way, so he pushes you from behind as well. You are distracted by something he is saying about Alexander's deployment, and so do not notice Christan coming up in support of Giannis until you start moving back a step at a time. Luckily for you, George backs up Michael and we push at each other ineffectively.

Quote:No: simply that Arrian does not mention dimoiites or half file leaders. He mentions many other positions but not ever a half file leader to my recollection.

Quote:The weight of attack will be borne by the front three saris-bearing ranks. The Persians - armed in traditional fashion - are simply fillers who will loose javellins and arrows and lend weight to the front sarisa bearers.

Quote:"en machen" and "en taxeis" means to place in line or order. This is what Xenophon states on the two occasions. In your instance they are on parade and "eis machen" and "are not about to meet a foe", rather, go to dinner; at Byzantiun "en taxei".

Quote:This is not correct. You don’t “stop in time” because you see the enemy ranks; you stop in time because you watch the back of the man in front of you slow down. This is obvious from a traffic example. You don’t look ahead to the accident to know when to stop in the line of cars in a jam, but at the decelerating car right in front of you. Because the ability of the person in front of you to slow down is similar to your ability to slow down, all you need is enough time to perceive that he is slowing down so you can match it- a few paces will do.

Quote:4) The only way to add the force of subsequent ranks to the forward push is to minimize the interval of impacts to the point where the mass acts as single entity- this is what we call a “crowd” (a specific meaning here referring to a lack of space between men). In this state force can transfer forward through ranks, so even small force of forward pressure by each man simply leaning forward and transferring his weight to the man in front adds up quickly to be a stronger forward pushing force than an individual impact of a running man. Just as important, this force is sustained, not an impact.

Quote:5) This basic form of a crowd leaning forward takes absolutely no training and happens all the time when people are in mass- sometimes with fatal results. Force can be increased if the crowd moves rhythmically to push/lean in unison and this will benefit from training to move in rhythm-i.e. group dances of the sort we know were common in Greece.

Quote:Each man adds some fraction of his body weight. Special pushing stances are less important than cohesion. The point is to transfer as much of your weight/pushing force to the man in front of you while keeping the absolute minimal distance between you and he (and the man behind you). This will dictate just how wide a range of “stances” men can assume because there is a trade-off between pushing and being close enough to transfer efficiently. You’ll note that this requirement becomes less important as you move back in rank and by the last rank. The front ranks add more force by simply standing up and transferring the force of 7-11 men behind them than they would if they adopted a stance that interfered with this transfer no matter how hard they push individually. Rear rank men have no such restriction and they should be pushing as hard as they can and in any stance that maximized pushing. One of the reenactors on here tried a collision of one man against a line standing at minimal distance. It worked perfectly as a proof of concept. When the foe ran into the front rank, the rear rank man was knocked back on his butt. I should have told them that the rear ranker needs to brace and not stand up, but the force transferred fluidly through the mass of men just like in a “Newton’s cradle”

Quote:The enemy cannot kneel and will find it difficult to fall even in death when the push is at its height. He will only fall when pressure decreases, as it does rhythmically, and when that occurs the promachos is no longer being thrust forward so forcibly. The key to this, and perhaps the hardest part to grasp, is that othismos cannot occur unopposed. There will never be a case like the experiment I wrote of above where a man can run into a phalanx in this density because it will only be at this density in reaction to another phalanx being also at this density.

Quote:No advance beyond a shuffle is possible in this density- just as no retreat beyond a shuffle is possible at this density. They cannot take 5 quick steps back any faster than you can take 5 steps forward. When one side routs, breaking from the rear, then both sides loosen their order.

Quote:Not sure what you mean by “right overlap”. In terms of keeping order there is little difference, though right-over-left is a little stronger, but for other reasons I think right-over-left superior.

Quote:It could last for a very long time. I just put some data on my blog recorded from a concert where huge pressures were recorded for 85 minutes- causing many to be removed from the crowd for medical reasons. My guess is that it lasted for a period of some time and if one side did not give way, the two sides loosened up like two weary wrestlers- perhaps back to the 4-5’ or so between phalanxes that was conducive to doratismos. Then the whole thing cycled again.

Quote:As you see, lots of pushing by individuals and even groups, very close to othismos. Hoplites could surely fight at this less dense formation as well. The key is that they can take it further- hoplites can go to 11

Quote:Being crushed in a crowd like a sardine is pretty orderly, so this is no problem. Withstanding and exerting pressure is exactly the same thing in othismos. It is interesting that you “see” the need for order and cohesion for “withstanding’ but don’t realize the same rules apply for “exerting” in mass. They are the same. Here's an image done by one of our RAT members that I advised on. It shows how I envision many elements, most important how they could still fight in the press:

Quote:They could move quickly into othismos with very little wait to re-order, but that would require a slow, very ordered march, probably to the sound of flutes, and would result in you enemy sometimes running away either before contact or quickly after because they cannot match your order as fast. It helps to wear red when you do this. :wink:

Quote:This is “common knowledge” but not true. You can find a football player to push as hard and as skilfully as he wishes and I can block him with a group of cheerleaders if they form a crowd. You need depth and/or coordination. That fact that a single man cannot break into formed men is evidence of this. Some minimal depth is needed because each man is pushing less than he would were he in a stance as you describe, but by being close they can add their pushing force while a group trying to push as individuals cannot. Thus if we graphed it out over different phalanx depths, you’d see an initial benefit to all out pushing which then starts to lose to the crowd-like group as more men are added.

Quote:Not a reenactor, perhaps for Marathon though. Training is always a benefit, but the beauty of othismos is that it allows the maximum use of less well trained troops.

Quote:You fight him as any heavy infantry would. The hoplite was quite capable of fighting outside of the pushing of phalanx combat. Othismos is simply a phase of battle, one that need not be achieved in all cases. It is after one side gives way that all of the ‘martial arts’ taught by hoplomachoi can be brought into play.

Quote:Or never, or almost immediately if you are a Spartan or perhaps being led by Pelopidas.

Quote:You could spear fence for hours and never do it. “Full force” needs defining in this context, because each individual need not produce much force, it is the aggregate that is important.

Quote:...Archelaos, standing to my left can't believe his luck ! A helpless target, pinned and jammed between Me and Giannis shoving from behind, unable to move. While keeping his own opponent at bay, he angles his spear to the right and gives a quick thrust.....Horrified you see it coming but can do nothing.
'The pitiless iron slams though your neck,' ( to coin a Homeric phrase !) the point severing your carotid, and all but severing your spine as it is as quickly withdrawn. Giannis, spattered in your gore, scrambles backward to avoid a like fate. Archelaos and I push forward, only to be driven back in turn and the two sides separate in this immediate vicinity gathering breath and strength for the next onslaught.....

Quote:The point being that the presence of nasty sharp weapons renders any attempt at 'shoving', even for a short while, suicidal.....

Quote:Left you can observe how the right-over-left overlap allows the opening of the shield wall actually endangering the phalanx.

Quote:in such a distance it is impossible to understand when your frontman will collide with the enemy to stop in time (especially if you are a fourth ranker or more to the back).

Quote:Exactly my point. 8 men shoving at the same time shouting in rhythm (en (prepare) dio (shove) (Of course these are numbers, just trying to show the effect )) can really exert enough physical force to push an enemy line, especially if it is not in perfect condition. Yet, I don't like the sustained pressure model for it becomes uncontrollable in the first ranks. I prefer to view it as a series of controlled pushes, which gradually push back the opponent without endangering the cohesion of the phalanx. These could go on like for minutes, but in controlled stages.

Quote:It seems to me that your use of the word "crowd" is misleading. Crowds are uncontrolled, indisciplined, uncoordinated. Thus your theory (at least in the beginning) sounds as complete chaos through the ranks, with every man shoving the back of his frontman without caring whether he marches too far from his sidemen and into the enemy lines.

Quote:Of course, but an untrained mass would not engage in such tactics, there would be no point, unless it was itself pushed back, unfamiliar with "othismos" (whatever it might exactly be), so the back ranks would just try to keep their lines shoving the front ranks. Should they be completely unaware, some would backstep, some would not and the line would lose its order (although to exploit that the advancing army should not lose its own order). Yet we are discussing hoplite tactics now, so I think we both agree that however othismos looked like, the hoplites must have rehearsed and trained at it.

Quote:There is little point in pinning yourself against the enemy, unable to fight or defend to exert the same force that you and your epistates would if trained to cooperate in proper stances.

Quote:Exactly. Should the enemy train to oppose the effects of an uncontrolled othismos, then the whole process is disadvantageous to the pusher. The enemy though (should he choose to, train to, fight with his rearman a yard away and just lose balance from the shock) can kneel or fall and an uncontrolled push would most possibly make the protostates of the pushing line fall. (a friend (expert in martial arts, among which pangration) once suggested that the front rankers might also brace just before the othismos to keep their line, but should this have happened, it would crop up in a text or two and when we tried it, we found out that it was very difficult and problematic due to the fact that the free hand should firmly grasp the shield arm and the angles produced were just not very helpful. We did not dismiss it though as a theory..).

Quote:One more observation is that in order to forcibly push you do not judge what the opposition force is. Should it decrease, the back ranks, the real pushers in your model would never know it until it would be too late. In their minds, they would just march forward pushing and would not know when to stop. Should they try to, it would again lead to chaos, for some would judge they should lessen their pressure, some would keep pushing thinking they routed their opponents, some would stop too soon and the line would lose its formation. You cannot leave such decisions to the judgement of the individual filecloser. 1000 files would mean 1000 different opinions as to when to stop, lessen, increase pushing force. In a matter of seconds, the line would be no more (should the push be successful!). Actually I agree that such effects would occur in a battle, when you or the enemy would force such a situation but I want to believe that this was not the famed othismos, but a "crowd" effect of too much density.

Quote:Actually there is much difference between a "right-over-left" and a "left-over-right" overlap of shields. Although most reliefs we have suggest the first to be prominent, I think that this is the case only during march, for it facilitates movement.

Quote:So, how did they disengage? A command? I am sure that in that concert you are referring to people also wanted to disengage but the mass didn't (mostly because the pressure is not applied to all equally, but to only certain unlucky individuals). I cannot imagine your model working like that, for it would demand a simultaneous decisions by both sides.

Quote:Should one side recoil, the other one would only be motivated to push harder, for the enemy would be giving in. Once engaged as your model suggests, it is, to my opinion, not possible to disengage, since any such attempt would encourage the other side.

Quote:Of course there was individual pushing by troops fighting in irregular formations. They tried to hack at their enemies and his shieldwalls stood in the way... But nowhere in this text is a mass or even by unit push described. Only individual efforts of some warriors to push the shield of the enemy aside and open a gap to hack at him, a battle between ordered troops and irregular barbarians. To withstand the first onslaught, Romans (and many others) , tightened their first three ranks (as Arrian orders in his Ektaxis kat' Alanon) to receive a charge at run. Btw, what do you mean by "less dense formation"? I guess you mean the barbarian density?

Quote:This could end up pushing the enemy line a hundred yards in a matter of minutes (btw, the image only shows 1-3 ranks of Spartans at doratismos. Did you intend to direct me to another image?).

Quote:Cohesion is not about files but ranks. Hoplites would strive to keep a line, so a forward march of one step would drive the enemy back and not break the line. After that another step... should the enemy get too packed to efficiently withstand pressure, they would try to advance 2 steps and so on. A line that is not in a receive pressure stance will see its rear ranks being shoven off and to the ground as you suggested, before they would get back to line, another push would bring down more men, since the depth of the formation now would be even more shallow. In a matter of minutes, a line which is not trained to withstand such a push will crumble and no disadvantage would come to the pushing line, nor should there be any opposition for this drill to work.

Quote:Why do you think that pushing in segments is difficult, complex or less effective than doing the same thing for a sustained time? It would allow for the line to assume pressure exerting and withstanding stance and maintain it too.

Quote:Oh.. you should do some reenacting...Most people do it to see themselves dressed up in front of a mirror, but to those who wish to evaluate certain details about warfare, it is an invaluable experience.

Quote:Of course you do... the question was about how would the pusher know it and stop his shoving... According to the "crowd" effect, the first ranks of the attacking line would just lose their balance and fall down. But I already posed this question above

Quote:Why "almost immediately" if you are Spartan? I am not aware of any such references. And, if you are suggesting it needs some preparation to be employed en mass, then there should be a command given, shouldn't there?

Quote:In this image, you can see my fears as I have experienced in reenactments of uncontrolled pushing.

Quote:Yet, it is interesting that most reliefs and paintings present the opposite overlap, isn't it? Were is this discussion btw?

Quote:Sorry? As I have already related, Arrian does indeed use the words Dekadarch, Dimoirites and two Dekastateroi (Arrian Anabasis VII.23).

Quote:

Quote:The weight of attack will be borne by the front three saris-bearing ranks. The Persians - armed in traditional fashion - are simply fillers who will loose javellins and arrows and lend weight to the front sarisa bearers.

Again, this is assumption on your part, for Arrian does not say this at all !!