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Quote:At Mantinea (Thuc V.66 ff), we are told that the armies were already on the move in the final advance to contact …I would agree all units were most likely in close order. What is your point?

One of your main assertions for the existence of an opened order stage is that they had to advance in opened order due to the difficulty you perceive in moving in close order. Here at Mantinea they are obviously advancing the whole way in close order. There is no way that the phalanxes veered perhaps as much as hundreds of meters to the right in the course of a final 100 meter advance. From the description there is no reason to expect that they formed up in opened order, stood like that for a while, then doubled into close order. They formed directly from column into close order files and did not double down further. Then they simply advanced. Occam is surely on my side now.

Quote:I'm afraid that passage of Thucydides (V.66 onward) is not as revelationary as you might think. At the stage of the battle Thucydides is describing the armies 'drawn up', unit by unit. Under my hypothesis, the troops would be in 'normal'/open order, with 6 ft frontage per man. .."

Quote:nice to see Paul bardunias and I are on the "same page" so to speak. Clearly the Spartans - confronted with an army in battle order and in advance of its former position

Quote:Against the threat of the scythed chariots, he ordered the infantry of the phalanx to join shields as soon as these went into action against them and to beat the shields with their spears […] if they persevered, to open gaps in the ranks such that they might ride through harmlessly.

[ho basileus parêngeile tois en têi phalangi pezois, hotan plêsiazêi ta tethrippa, sunaspisai kai tais sarisais tas aspidas tuptein]

Quote:[…] the chariots had now charged the phalanx, and the Macedonians received the charge with a firm resolve, permitting them to penetrate to the middle of the column.Their formation resembled a rampart; after creating an unbroken line of spears, they stabbed the flanks of the horses from both sides as they charged recklessly ahead.

Quote:Note also the consistent description of the phalangite shield as aspide. Clealry to Diodorus (and the others of our sources) a shield is an aspide is a shield.

Quote: Irrelevant to the phalanx depth,i just note that Diodorus' word for the skythed chariots is "tethrippon" which just means four horsed chariot.

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Quote:Note also the consistent description of the phalangite shield as aspide. Clealry to Diodorus (and the others of our sources) a shield is an aspide is a shield.

Yes,it never meant something more than just shield.

Quote: In fact,hypaspist is an earlier word that meant "servant", the one who carries your shield untill you're about to fight. They were not a unit. It s more likely that the macedonian hypaspist took their name from their service under the king himself than from the usage of any particular kind of shield. For one,the hypaspist were a unit trained to fight in different ways.
Khaire
Giannis

Quote:Absolutely. "Local" kings had their "hypaspists" prior to Philip II as is attested in the literary sources. The notion that these are definitely "hoplite" aspis carriers is a nonsense. It would appear that, under Philip II and Alexander III, these troops (pezhetairoi under Philip) as the guard corps of dominant Macedonian kings, became the hypaspists of the time.

Hypaspist would appear - as you say - to be a traditional nomencalture.

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Quote:Absolutely. "Local" kings had their "hypaspists" prior to Philip II as is attested in the literary sources. The notion that these are definitely "hoplite" aspis carriers is a nonsense. It would appear that, under Philip II and Alexander III, these troops (pezhetairoi under Philip) as the guard corps of dominant Macedonian kings, became the hypaspists of the time.

Hypaspist would appear - as you say - to be a traditional nomencalture.

Perhaps Paralus would care to specify where in literature guard units of "local Kings" (local to where?) are referred in literature as Hypaspists? I can think of only one off-hand - The 'King' of Paeonia had a 'Hypaspist' guard, contemporary with and clearly an imitation of Macedonian Hypaspists.

Quote: Nor did 'Hypaspists' fight in "different" ways......what evidence suggests this, beyond the fact that, as an elite Guard unit, they were frequently chosen for special missions?

Quote: I think you would agree that the sculptural and painting evidence shows that before and during Philip and Alexander's reign, the 'Aspis' was definitely carried and used by some Macedonian troops ( e.g. the 'Alexander sarcophagus' , the Veria relief, the Aghios Athenasios frieze, various tomb paintings etc). Since there is ample evidence that the Phalanx was armed with the sarissa and a rimless 'pelta' c. 73 cm in diameter, which troops carried the larger ( c.95 cm) rimmed 'Aspis'?

Quote: There can, in reality, be only one probable candidate - the obvious one - the 'Aspis-Carriers'/Hypaspists. ( and please let us have no nonsense and red herrings about 'asthetaroi', since whoever they were, they were members of the sarissa and pelta armed Phalanx).

Quote:My, my… we are sounding dogmatic this morning. I hope it is not as a result of the shocking weather up your way (that you are in communication indicates your survival – without damage one is to hope). Perhaps you had testosterone rather than sugar in your coffee this morning!!??

Quote:I would note my use of the two descriptives: “definitely” and “would appear”. If you are alleging that Philip’s pezhetairoi are “definitely” aspis carriers, then I disagree. It is not definite.

Quote:I would suggest that indicates a certain “flexibility” and the ability to adopt different martial techniques.

Quote:There is the possibility that the king’s Royal foot Guards - somatophylakes as Ptolemy evidently referred to them as on occasion – may be the aspis-armed troops about the king.

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Quote:There is the possibility that the king’s Royal foot Guards - somatophylakes as Ptolemy evidently referred to them as on occasion – may be the aspis-armed troops about the king.

If this is a serious suggestion, then I guess you are grasping at straws!

Quote:Not at all my good man, not at all. If I am grasping at anything it would be your suggestion that the original group from whom the hypaspists were "desceded" were aspis-carrying noblity ("townies" if I recall) that attended the king. Just something else to think about.

And it is clear that Ptolemy did refer to the Royal hypaspists as somatophylakes on more than one occasion. This is when Arrian does not refer to them as hetairoi. Diodorus also calls them somatophylakes at Philip's murder (as well as doryphoroi). Just as clearly they are a distinct unit of the hypaspist corps and scions of the nobility.

Quote:As the battle is underway the chariots charge the Macedonian lines and the phalangites, as ordered, form into synaspismos (phalangos sunaspizousês) and duly beat their shields with their sarisae (tais sarisais pantôn tuptontôn tas aspides). The results are mixed but largely in their favour. After this, for those chariots that continue, the phalangites do indeed open their ranks and allow the chariots through.

This, on the theory supposed in this thread, makes for much movement of ranks or, should I say, half and “quarter” files. On that theory the phalanx advances to within striking distance and then the rear eight rush up into pyknosis (eight deep) so as to be “closed up for action”. This former rear eight – obedient to the king’s orders – split down by fours and rush forward so as to form synaspismos and bang sarisae on shield. This done – and many chariots turned – each second four then rushes back to the rear and then each second eight rush back to form “open order” so as to enable the phalanx to perform the action of “opening up” so as to allow the chariots through.
One imagines the sprinting of thousands of fully armed Usain Bolts – carrying sarisae – demonstrating the precision timing of the chorus line of 42nd Street

Quote:Curtius (4.15.14-15) adds the detail of the Macedonian formation resembling a ramparts:
[…] the chariots had now charged the phalanx, and the Macedonians received the charge with a firm resolve, permitting them to penetrate to the middle of the column..Their formation resembled a rampart; after creating an unbroken line of spears, they stabbed the flanks of the horses from both sides as they charged recklessly ahead.


I would guess – given this is accurate – that the movement of these armed Usain Bolts must have resembled so many thousands of Rubic’s Cubes in constant motion!

Quote:We have here an attempt to ridicule, rather than reason, but if we take away the hyperbole of terms such ‘rush forward’ and ‘rushes back’ ‘Usain Bolts’ etc, the first part is inherently probable – that the Phalanx began in ‘open/normal’ order sixteen deep, then closed to ‘close order’ eight deep as it advanced, and finally formed ‘locked shields’ four deep.

However it must be plain to anyone that they didn’t reform ‘open’ order to let the chariots through since a four-horse chariot is rather wider than the three foot gap between soldiers in ‘open’ order !!

Quote:It is my belief ( for reasons too complex to explain in a brief post) that Greek authors always described depths in 'open' order - 6 feet per man frontage ( which the authors of the Hellenistic manuals call 'normal' order, hence having no special name.) It was this 'open/normal' order in which the Phalanx, pike or spear armed, carried out battlefield manoeuvres .

Quote:In fact, our sources describe something rather different. Arrian says they were largely countered by the Agrianes and Thracian javelin-men who formed the usual light infantry screen ahead of the Phalanx.

Quote:These accounts can be reconciled somewhat. I believe that the Phalanx probably did get down to a four deep ‘synaspismos’, and since our sources speak of “breaking formation” and “wide gaps” – hence certainly not the normal drill movements - we can envisage the line ‘splitting’ in front and folding back each side of the split at right-angles to create a gap, perhaps some 10-20 yards wide, whenever a chariot broke through the light infantry screen. This would create a corridor lined each side for 5-10 yards by close-packed phalangites.