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+--- Thread: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" (/showthread.php?tid=14785)
Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - jkaler48 - 03-13-2009
Your century carries two pila per man into battle. Do you have a ready source of resupply (other than recovering undamaged thrown
Pila)? Perhaps extra pila are close by carried in the ballista cart attached to your century or a bundle of pila are on nearby a pack mule
ready to brought forward when signaled. Or maybe the last guy that got in trouble is packing a big bundle of pila in addition to his regular gear? Anyone have any insights on this tactical question?
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - jvrjenivs - 03-13-2009
Do you mean re-supplying during battle? Where do you get the idea from that's needed. When every single legionair has thrown his 2 pila, you already are close together and fighting, so wouldn't you continue fighting with your scutum and gladius? Also, I would think supplies of new pila would open your formation, which you want to prevent.
But this is purely my point of view, not based on any source.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Magnus - 03-13-2009
Jurjen's right...after pila are thrown, the legions closed with the enemy. What's the point in a resupply?
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Paullus Scipio - 03-13-2009
Actually, there are good reasons for thinking that the 'missile phase' of a 'Roman style' battle ( at least in Republican times) often consisted of a longer period of skirmishing than just quickly loosing two pila in the initial phase of a short 'charge into contact', and that the pila was in sustained use during a battle.
See for example the paper 'Not so different:Individual fighting techniques and battle tactics of Roman and Iberian armies within the framework of warfare in the Hellenistic battle' by Fernando Quesada Sanz ( our own "Thersites") - available on-line as referred to in an old thread -and the papers he refers to therein by Goldsworthy 1996, Sabin 2000 and Zhmodikov 2000.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - jvrjenivs - 03-13-2009
Thanks for correcting me Paul. I've downloaded the paper and will study it. Sounds like quite interesting stuff.
For those also want to search that article, here is the topic:
link from old RAT
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Alexandr K - 03-13-2009
Hi,
Paul is right. Roman battles often lasted for several hours and the missile exchange formed an important part of the battles. For example Caesar wrote that during the battle of Ilerda first after 5 hours of fighting his legionaries depleted all their missiles (Caes. B.C. I. 46). A. Zhmodikov found quite a lot of evidence for the missile phases of battles, as mentioned by Paul. His article used to be online, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be any more. Nevertheless I saved the article, so if anyone is interested, just send me a PM.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Paullus Scipio - 03-13-2009
Quote:Thanks for correcting me Paul. I've downloaded the paper and will study it. Sounds like quite interesting stuff.
For those also want to search that article, here is the topic:
link from old RAT
Hi Jurjenus!
....I wasn't "correcting" you - your statement is correct for some battles, just adding additional information that not all battles went the way you described - some/many battles were longer, with a prolonged 'missile' phase; in fact, it would be fair to say that each battle was unique......
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - jvrjenivs - 03-13-2009
Quote:jvrjenivs:11wt9py3 Wrote:Thanks for correcting me Paul. I've downloaded the paper and will study it. Sounds like quite interesting stuff.
For those also want to search that article, here is the topic:
link from old RAT
Hi Jurjenus!
....I wasn't "correcting" you - your statement is correct for some battles, just adding additional information that not all battles went the way you described - some/many battles were longer, with a prolonged 'missile' phase; in fact, it would be fair to say that each battle was unique......
Yeah, I know, but the way I represented my post (although I added that I wasn't sure about that) was that my view applied to battle strategies in general, which seems to be not true.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - M. Demetrius - 03-13-2009
Light infantry javelins (not pila).
Auxiliary throwing spears.
Arrows.
Sling stones.
Ballista/scorpion bolts.
All these are missiles. Pila weren't the only things categorized as missiles.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-13-2009
Possibly you could have a situation where the fron ranks are engaged after throwing their pila, and the rear ranks are still lobbing over their heads into the mass of the enemy behind their front ranks, so these guys would need to be rearmed on an ongoing basis.
But that too is just how I imagine it going in a particular instance.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Matthew Amt - 03-13-2009
Also, we don't know if all the ranks threw at the same time or not. My guess would be that the rear ranks held on to at least one pilum each, possibly both if the formation was deeper than 3 ranks. They could throw at close range if they moved up to relieve men in the front rank, or throw them over the front-rankers during melee, or wait until the lines recoiled a little from each other to rest. The men in back could have moved up to throw, or passed their javelins forward. LOTS of variables!
Remember as well that a lot of those pila (and other missiles) would be coming back at the Romans, thrown by the other side. Sure, we *think* many pila would bend, but there is debate about how common that was. And it really isn't hard to straighten out a pilum in most cases, so guys farther back would have time to do this when their front rank was engaged in melee. Odd pila being thrown back at the Romans would have been annoying, of course, but would not have nearly the affect of huge trained simultaneous volleys of them! And of course the pilum that your enemy thoughtfully returns to you can be slammed right back in his face in appreciation.
I think some of the theories of Roman missile combat got a little extreme, to the point of poo-pooing the concept of hand-to-hand combat as a rare thing, but that is simply going to far. We know how aggressively the Romans trained to fight with swords, so they were clearly ready to do that at any time. On the other hand, that in itself could have convinced opponents to do their best to stay out of sword range, making for a more missile-oriented battle than they usually would have engaged in! Pure speculation, of course, I'm just saying to be careful of some stuff written on this subject.
Valete! And duck!
Matthew
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - jkaler48 - 03-13-2009
Here is a proposed drill for when the enemy appears at close quarters. The first two (or four) ranks plant there pila upright in the ground and draw the gladius while taking two steps forward. The remaining troops immediately throw pila , then step forward and throw the first two A(or four) ranks pila. Commands anyone? Anyone want to try it out at drill to see if it would work out? This prevents the century's front ranks from being hit as they attempt to throw pila and still have one pilum in their scutum hand.
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Alexandr K - 03-13-2009
Hi,
Quote:I think some of the theories of Roman missile combat got a little extreme, to the point of poo-pooing the concept of hand-to-hand combat as a rare thing, but that is simply going to far. We know how aggressively the Romans trained to fight with swords, so they were clearly ready to do that at any time. On the other hand, that in itself could have convinced opponents to do their best to stay out of sword range, making for a more missile-oriented battle than they usually would have engaged in! Pure speculation, of course, I'm just saying to be careful of some stuff written on this subject.I agree. I too think that Zhmodikov's theory of a big predominance of missile fighting over the hand-to-hand combat is already too far. But there is also plenty of evidence which suggests that the model of one initial pila volley and then only close order fighting is simply wrong.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - M. Demetrius - 03-13-2009
Quote:The first two (or four) ranks plant there pila upright in the groundSounds risky...if the ground surface is hard or rocky, many would simply fall over, or require a soldier to place undue attention on making sure his pilum was sticking up. Hmm. That sounds -- :oops:
Re: Pila resupply in Battle (The Century\'s "Basic AmmuntionLoad" - Magnus - 03-13-2009
Quote:Here is a proposed drill for when the enemy appears at close quarters. The first two (or four) ranks plant there pila upright in the ground and draw the gladius while taking two steps forward. The remaining troops immediately throw pila , then step forward and throw the first two A(or four) ranks pila. Commands anyone? Anyone want to try it out at drill to see if it would work out? This prevents the century's front ranks from being hit as they attempt to throw pila and still have one pilum in their scutum hand.
Why would they plant their pila, and not throw them? I don't think the enemy would just appear 10 feet in front of them...