Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!!

Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Printable Version

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Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Nerva - 05-25-2009

Salvete Omnes!

We've often been asked about the destructive power of Roman artillery. Recently we did some tests against shields but we wanted to test against something akin to human flesh. So we bought a 2.5 kg ham joint and decided to experiment (don't worry, the ham has been cooked and will provide food for my cats for weeks to come).

Here's the first picture. We suspended the ham joint from our trusted tripod via string at 10m
[Image: mt01.JPG]

The first bolt was loosed at about 70% power and struck the underside of the joint
[Image: mt03.JPG]

And

Here's the hole...
[Image: mt13.JPG]

We then went to about 80% power and tried again
[Image: mt07.JPG]

And

And

Here's the inlet hole...
[Image: mt14.JPG]

And

And here's the outlet hole...
[Image: mt15.JPG]

We then cranked her up to full power, about 520lb's or so...It knocked the tripod over and went all the way through the length of the ham joint!!!
[Image: mt19.JPG]

And

Here's the entry hole
[Image: mt20.JPG]

We then had another shot which tore the joint apart...
[Image: mt23.JPG]

And...

And...

And here's the penetration hole...
[Image: mt26.JPG]

And

And here's a size comparison with a human hand...
[Image: mt28.JPG]

And here are a few shots of our last bolt...
[Image: mt31.JPG]

I think in summary, it's fair to say that being struck by such a bolt would be devastating. Sorry for the gorey images but that’s all part and parcel of experimental archaeology...

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - D B Campbell - 05-26-2009

Quote:So we bought a 2.5 kg ham joint and ... suspended the ham joint from our trusted tripod via string at 10m

Now you're just having a laugh, Martin. A naked adversary ending up 10m in front of a catapult must be the stupidest barbarian in the world. (Or the unluckiest.)

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Nerva - 05-26-2009

Salve Duncan!

Of course your right. We started at 30m, but every bolt missed :oops: We then went to 20m with much the same results :oops: :oops: So we finally went to 10m and managed to hit the target a few times.

Now this raises a very interesting question, one which you raised in my earlier thread, what was the EFFECTIVE range of such machines. I'm sure a skilled operator could probably hit a specific target at 50m to 100m, but beyond that I think it's a matter of chance. We have fired bolts at targets at 50m and had very poor results. Even if your a skilled marksman you still have to place the machine in position, wind back, place in bolt (where weight probably varied quite a bit), then aim and fire the machine. If you miss the target you have to do this all over again and how can you possibly acheive a slightly corrected firing solution to hit the target?........Oh well.

I'd love to cover the meat in a tunic and armour, place it at 50m and see the results. The problem is that we'd probably need a bloody blue whale in chainmail to have any chance of hitting the target :roll:

In anycase, I agree with what you were saying...

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - AuxArcher - 05-26-2009

Salve, Nerva.

Well, you look to have a whole lot of work ahead of you to be real artillerymen. Accuracy is your biggest challenge right now, I think, and learning the machine inside and out. How it shoots up and down slopes, from the top and bottom of earth works, in towers, and in an open field. I'd suggest you visit Nick Watt's homepage, and take a good look at his accuracy tests...very much eye openers. He tests on things like phone books and heavy wooden logs, but go check it out. He posted on the archeology page, so you can find the link there.

There is no way around having to put thousands of bolts through your machine to get that kind of proficiency. All the may variable are going to rear up and bite you now, such as lenght of draw, poundage at given draw, what kind of target you are firing at, tension in the springs, stretch in the bow string itself, and differnt weather conditions you are shooting in.

It strikes me that a catapult that is outranged and outclassed by a bowman or a slinger is not particulary useful. You'd have a quickly dead crew and pehaps captured machine for your efforts. Why do you think this machine is shooting the way it is? The trajectory should be much flatter and faster for the weight it is pulling. Maybe the bolts are a culpret? The old formula is 9 x spring diameter, and would that be applicable to the iron framers? A longer, lighter bolt may help in accuracy testing. And smaller diameter arrows can have more lethal penetration in self archery, so why not in catapults?

I'd have a number of extra strings on hand too. Not hard to make, but maybe you got exta ones from Wilkins / Morgan?

I think you already know, but a pig test would not be, I think, a little cute hunk of ham (I name all my Xmas hams, which always makes guests nervous Smile

) Making friends with a butcher or a pig farmer would be a good Idea, I think. Please, dead ones only. Then, you have to dress her up in proper armor with sub armor padding, and a really well made shield and see what it does.

Getting that chronograph up and running would be a good idea, too. I think taht is what you meant by a ballistic radar?

Don't waste that ham, by the way. It sill looks delicious. Smile

Dane

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Ceannt - 05-26-2009

Quote:Salve, Nerva.

Well, you look to have a whole lot of work ahead of you to be real artillerymen. Accuracy is your biggest challenge right now, I think, and learning the machine inside and out. How it shoots up and down slopes, from the top and bottom of earth works, in towers, and in an open field. I'd suggest you visit Nick Watt's homepage, and take a good look at his accuracy tests...very much eye openers. He tests on things like phone books and heavy wooden logs, but go check it out. He posted on the archeology page, so you can find the link there.

There is no way around having to put thousands of bolts through your machine to get that kind of proficiency. All the may variable are going to rear up and bite you now, such as lenght of draw, poundage at given draw, what kind of target you are firing at, tension in the springs, stretch in the bow string itself, and differnt weather conditions you are shooting in.

It strikes me that a catapult that is outranged and outclassed by a bowman or a slinger is not particulary useful. You'd have a quickly dead crew and pehaps captured machine for your efforts. Why do you think this machine is shooting the way it is? The trajectory should be much flatter and faster for the weight it is pulling. Maybe the bolts are a culpret? The old formula is 9 x spring diameter, and would that be applicable to the iron framers? A longer, lighter bolt may help in accuracy testing. And smaller diameter arrows can have more lethal penetration in self archery, so why not in catapults?

I'd have a number of extra strings on hand too. Not hard to make, but maybe you got exta ones from Wilkins / Morgan?

I think you already know, but a pig test would not be, I think, a little cute hunk of ham (I name all my Xmas hams, which always makes guests nervous ) Making friends with a butcher or a pig farmer would be a good Idea, I think. Please, dead ones only. Then, you have to dress her up in proper armor with sub armor padding, and a really well made shield and see what it does.

Getting that chronograph up and running would be a good idea, too. I think taht is what you meant by a ballistic radar?

Don't waste that ham, by the way. It sill looks delicious.

Dane

I know butcher's and farmers so i can get my hands on dead cows and maby pigs

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Nerva - 05-26-2009

Salve Dane!

Big Grin

D D lol:

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Robert Vermaat - 05-26-2009

Quote:I think you already know, but a pig test would not be, I think, a little cute hunk of ham

No, ballistic clay or whatever it's called would serve better if you're interested in scientific testing.

Poor ham. I'd roast it and eat it myself. Your cats are spoiled. :mrgreen:

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - barcid - 05-27-2009

Excentent work.pin point shots are always hard to do. ive shot cannister from a M1841 6pdr. smooth bore at a man size target & missed BUT every tree with in 400 meters was peppered .lesson is artillery was shot at massed targets , even at long range you will ruin a few chaps day .

steel piggie struck by 3" iron ball @ 200 meters

[Image: mm64d0.jpg]

Guano dave in the white shirt with 6pdr.& crew

[Image: 35mdtds.jpg]

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - M. Demetrius - 05-27-2009

That's pretty darned good shootin', hitting that small of a target at 200m. It must look like a fly from that distance.

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - D B Campbell - 05-27-2009

Quote:Even if your a skilled marksman you still have to place the machine in position, wind back, place in bolt (where weight probably varied quite a bit), then aim and fire the machine. If you miss the target you have to do this all over again and how can you possibly acheive a slightly corrected firing solution to hit the target?........Oh well.

Which is why I'm skeptical that catapults were ever used in open battle, Martin. They are occasionally mentioned as point defences, but as soon as the action moves on, or your position is overrun, your catapults are useless. (Of course, the carroballista allows you to deploy more easily and withdraw when you realise you're in the wrong place.)

Quote:It strikes me that a catapult that is outranged and outclassed by a bowman or a slinger is not particulary useful. You'd have a quickly dead crew and pehaps captured machine for your efforts.

Presumably this is why catapults, time and time again, are accompanied by slingers (and sometimes archers, too). But, in the fluid environment of open battle, such troops would be terribly exposed, whereas in the fixed environment of a siege they can be adequately protected.

Quote:Just one question though, are "WE" totally weird experimenting on dead animal parts :lol:

Yes!

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - barcid - 05-27-2009

Quote:That's pretty darned good shootin', hitting that small of a target at 200m. It must look like a fly from that distance.

It took us 5 shots to hit it Dave ,,we had a blade fore sight & pendulem hausse rear sight fitted & a red marker stake to fire at with the piggie at the base,

the hardest part was the 1000 meter stroll to find the rounds fired & missed with :lol:

noone was more suprised than us when we did hit it, we usually fired at a 3,2,1, stack of 44 gallon drums, can still hear the cheer & that was 12 years ago now.

so back on topic you can get very good accuracy if you can keep all the variables as constant as one can but artillery ancient pregunpowder & pre 20th. cent smoothbores are usefull only at mass targets at anything past 100 meters in gereral terms . but HUGE Fun to play with :twisted:

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Nerva - 05-27-2009

Quote:It took us 5 shots to hit it Dave

Thats about 25 shot's less thanit took us :oops:

Quote:he hardest part was the 1000 meter stroll to find the rounds fired & missed with :lol:

Do what we do and paint one half of the ball bright red Big Grin

Quote:no one was more suprised than us when we did hit it

Thats one little piggy who wont be going to market Smile

lol: Great shot though

Quote:so back on topic you can get very good accuracy if you can keep all the variables as constant as one can

That's the big problem, isn't it :?

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - barcid - 05-27-2009

:lol: gotta hate them variables :lol: we tried painting our balls but it got blown off :oops: that just does not read right :!:

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - Nerva - 05-27-2009

Quote: we tried painting our balls but it got blown off

Crikey :!: I'm painting mine right away :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!! - AuxArcher - 05-27-2009

Gents, something comes to mind. I have heard more than once that scorpions were used in a kind of sniper role, and were accurate enough that you could take out a lone target with one. I wonder if that is true? It seems to me that just assigning these machines to a mass target kind of role is contrary to what they should be capable of.

Making sure the stand for your machine is totally stable may help, Martin. Even a tiny little bit of wobble is going to ruin your shot groups.

Remember that a Roman artillaryman was in for the long haul, so had many years to practice and hone his skills, and decades of centuries of knowledge and institutional experience to draw from. We weekend (ancient) warriors can't approach that kind of lifetime of committment and knowledge from just practicing with our weapons, year in and year out.

I agree with Duncan. They wouldn't simply place a lone machine or battery out by itself, without lots of infantry protection, in some very well selected position. Even with all that protection, I am guessing that the training of a Roman "cannon cocker" would have, like modern armies, encompassed every position in a crew, so as crew members are killed or wounded, they could still continue in the battle.

Martin, playing with dead animal parts is part of the glamor and excitement. I have quite a few dead critter parts around my house, and my wife sometimes wonders what new strange thing I am going to bring home next, or what she will find in the freezer or refrigerator. If you decide to dry out and process sinew or tan hides, expect the neighbors to become aware of you, too. Smile

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