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+--- Thread: Some Aspis Revisionism (/showthread.php?tid=15244)
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Kineas - 07-03-2009
And I'm a dreadful typist. Sorry, folks!
I should have said that I haven't found this shield in any other publication. It may be all over the place and that's just my ignorance. If genuine, it is beautifully preserved. On the other hand, it has no markings that I can find to indicate how it was mounted and there's a few other discrepancies--it's got the only smooth shield rim, for instance, and the only multi-part face.
All told, though, it seems unlikely that it would hang in a major archaeological museum unless it was genuine...
And I agree, Paul--there may be other reasons for an off-center porpax. But the need to mount the antelabe on the shield rim doesn't seem to be one of them given the evidence. That's all I meant to say.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - nikolaos - 07-03-2009
Note this shield in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts as well..
http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_a ... _start=101
Second half of the 6th century BCE. Unfortunately the picture is just of the font, but its on display, so its possible the rear is visible as well.
Have fun!
Cole
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - PMBardunias - 07-03-2009
Quote:Note this shield in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts as well..
Has anyone seen this shield in person? I am wondering how much is original bronze and how much is restored.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Kineas - 07-03-2009
Nearly all original, I'd say.
Note the porpax and Antelabe placement--that guy had little tiny forearms! very cool, Cole.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - PMBardunias - 07-03-2009
I posted a link to an image of this shield with a fellow standing beside it for scale on another thread if anyone wants to see it: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22607&start=100#p238742">viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22607&start=100#p238742<!-- l
Time to convince your group to be the "bad guys" at a Bunker Hill reenactment Christian?
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - nikolaos - 07-03-2009
My pleasure.
When you look at it in their "zoom-finder" thingamajiggy the upper left quarter of the rim doesn't display the guilloching, and its hard to tell scanning the surface if its all orginal or not. I sent a message to the curator to see if its been published, and asked a bunch of follow up questions (picture of the back, etc)
Have fun!
Cole
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Giannis K. Hoplite - 07-03-2009
Yes,certainly not all of the face is original. I can see indication of porpax placement,but the antilabe? Where is it?
How about this shield?
![[Image: aah.jpg]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/aah.jpg)
![[Image: shieldandhelm.jpg]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/shieldandhelm.jpg)
![[Image: hoplon.jpg]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/hoplon.jpg)
Don't know where it is but probably it's Italian.
Very interesting stuff coming out!
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Paullus Scipio - 07-03-2009
I take it from your post you don't know any more about this panoply, Giannis? dimensions etc?
As to origin the bronze belt of the panoply almost certainly makes it South Italian, and judging roughly by the style of the Corinthian c.600-550 BC at a guess.....
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - nikolaos - 07-06-2009
Indeed. What's the provenance of the pics Gianni?
Thanks
cole
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Giannis K. Hoplite - 07-08-2009
I really don't know guys, 'm very sorry. I think it was from a museum where there were also many roman helmets that some people were shown handling. And indeed if you notice the photos are from the museum storage they were not displayed,except for the second photo of course. There was also a nicely preserved muscled cuirass there...hmm,i would have to search for days again to find it,and again,it was years ago that i had saved the photos. The time that i wasn't that concerned of references and such. :oops:
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - PMBardunias - 07-16-2009
I have been looking over how ancient artist portrayed hoplites. I'm convinced the answer is "not very realistically" due to contraints painting on a 2-D surface. This is an image that I find very telling. It is interesting because hoplites are often shown advancing with their shields edge on, the blazons facing towards us or away. There are a few imaged that show hoplites advancing with the shield in profile- facing the evemy- but usually these are lone men or a static line. Below is an early aryballos that is in Berlin. The force on the right advances as we see on many vases, like the almost contemporary Chigi , edge on. The force on the left advances in the same formation, but with the shields in profile.
As far as I know this is a unique solution to the problem of perspective. It looks weird enough that I can see why it was not often repeated. It is of course unlikely that the two forces were actually holding the shield differently so close to contact. It would seem most likely to me that the portrayal on the left is the most accurately portrayed, while on the right realism is sacrificed for style and the ability to show shield blazons. Since I can think of no reason other than realism to show the shields in profile as on the left, it is not likely to be an artistic device.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Paullus Scipio - 07-16-2009
Quote:.......like the almost contemporary Chigi ,......even to some of the shield designs being the same, notably the flying bird and bulls head. Perhaps one artist had seen the other, especially if both are of Corinthian origin.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - PMBardunias - 07-17-2009
Quote:.......like the almost contemporary Chigi ,......
Oops, more that almost. The Chigi painter is credited with this work as well it seems. Heres the whole band- I only posted part of it before. Its from about 640 BC.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - Paullus Scipio - 07-17-2009
One more point to note, ascertainable from the profile depiction is that these aspides are of the earlier type, shallower in bowl, and with a symmetrical curve. This is in contrast to the later, better known type with steep 'shoulders' and an assymetric curve and shown on this thread.
The change in profile seems to have occurred circa 550 BC, for a Lekythos in New York (MMA 26.60.76 ) shows a Hoplite with the later type crouching beside scythian archers, and at least one Hoplite has the earlier type.
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - PMBardunias - 07-17-2009
Quote:One more point to note, ascertainable from the profile depiction is that these aspides are of the earlier type, shallower in bowl, and with a symmetrical curve.
Could be, images in profile are very rare this early. There is an lot of variation in depth throughout the period and I can think of at least one depiction of a "boetian" shield that is very deep. (I am here assuming that the boetian is just an altered aspis) Perhaps if shields were turned instead built of lathes, they became flatter faced with thicker "shoulder" regions.