+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Allies & Enemies of Rome (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Sassanian rider (/showthread.php?tid=15331)
Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-17-2009
Hello gents,
I just 'published' (that is the very word what google uses when one writes and/or attaches images to a post when bloging) a digital painting of a Sassanian horseman on my blog-
It is based loosely on many images of the Sassanian iconography and couple friends' drawings and suggestions (I do go into the detail in the posting).
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C6_DXX4pkmQ/S ... kic+a+.jpg
If you feel like it then do comment here or on my blog
enjoy
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 06-18-2009
Excellent done!
Some comments and questions,
before reading your blog I thought it was a "Diqhan" Medium Horse Archers. Style would fit.
Do you think that Bahram Gur battled the Hephtalites as horse archer? So far I thought the King (and the other high nobility) fought as super-heavy lancer cavalry in the 5th century.
However, given the sparse description of that campaign and the sudden, blitzkrieg-style attack of the Sassanians it might be possible that the Sassanians changed armor protection for mobility.
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-18-2009
Salve,
I am not going to pretend I know the ancient Persia in-and-out, that would have been preposterous.
Instead allow me to share with you the several thoughts my friend Patryk shared with me when we did our collaborating on this drawing:
Firstly, king Bahram was (perhaps still is) a symbolic personage (hero) in the Iranian/Persian consciousness. This guy represented all consuming vitality and personified any and all possible success in every endeavor undertaken (when some young woman catches his eye he simply marries her and 'consumes' the relationship – Sassanian kings had no lovers because adultery was a mortal sin). Perhaps because of his upbringing with the Lakhmids he was more prone to take plenty of personal risk – sort of Sassanian Herakles.
Secondly, the epic of Shahnameh - in that epic he always fights in the first rank and generally is shown as an exceptionally gung-ho character. Although Shahnameh must (obviously) be treated with a pinch of salt yet it appears that at least some Sassanian kings fought at the helm of their troops (especially in the early period of their state, eg king Ardashir killed himself his Parthian opponent Artaban in hand to hand combat and several sources do talk about that feat, however there is no agreement as to what weapon he used to dispatch his royal enemy).
Bahram's campaign against the Hephthalites was more like a commando operation than a Blietzkireg, or perhaps a combination of both – it was conducted by not too large, elite unit – perhaps all of them 40 years old and very experienced
- no youngsters nor stately but older warriors, moving around while unknown to the enemy and striking this enemy with a surgical precision, at the most unexpected moment, always victorious.This expedition against the Hephthalites was started under the guise of a normal royal hunting trip. Thus the origin of title to my post – hunting the Hephthalites – Bahram left with a small entourage to hunt lions yet hunted and killed a whole lot of... Hephthalites and no lions, wild boars nor onagers. This is why hunting terminology may be quite justified here. Additionally, Bahram was known to have been the master archer
and must have used his bow and his early pallash like sword ( M .V. Gorelik - in his essay on the arms and armour of the South-Eastern Europe 5-10th c AD- advances this theory that Sassanian 'pistol-grip' swords were actually early pallashes)Finally, in spite of or perhaps rather because of the iconographic sources, we should think that Sassanian kings did not hunt wearing their royal crowns. Our Bahram Gur was known to return from his hunting expeditions absolutely 'incognito', usually disguised as a 'young knight'. In this disguise he presented such an impressive and fine manly figure that the impressed dighan/dehkans gave him their daughters away in marriage, without checking his credentials nor lineages nor wealth. The surprising and unexpected grace and honor of their daughter being then allowed to enter the royal harem as a wife of the very shahinshah must have been truly amazing news to many an exasperated father (and mother). In the stories about him there is one anecdote how he hung his horsewhip on the gates of his 'marriage house' in such a way that the unsuspected owner was the last to learn that his house had been 'knighted' and blessed with king's favour. So perhaps if he were to roam around the countryside wearing all his royal paraphernalia, here especially his royal crown, thus the surprise displayed by the visited hosts' must have been all false and and pompous pretensions.
Re: Sassanian rider - daryush - 06-19-2009
That is an extremely nice drawing!
Two very minor (and pedantic, I admit) points:
1) The bow that he's holding looks either underbraced or that it's going to be very unstable. And it's more reminiscent of Mongol bows from Genghis Khan's time or Indo-Persian crab bows from about 1000 years later than this particular rider.
2) He should be on a four horned saddle (sorry if I missed this underneath various drapes)
By the way, I didn't realise that was your blog. I often visit if when I'm looking for pictures of cavalry and things. Good work
Re: Sassanian rider - jonwr - 06-22-2009
I see daryush got there first. But you may be on shaky ground with the bow as illustrated.
Here is a link to two excellent pieces showing 4thC and 7thC Sassanian equipment. Especially check out the difference in the two bow designs.
http://books.google.com/books?id=heaA2L ... t&resnum=1
Here is a nice pic of the 4thC piece.
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_5_4a.html
Jon R
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-22-2009
czolem gents,
thanks for your interest in my drawing, and as per this drawing or any other one there is always room for improvement
having said that I do have a large collection of photos showing the Sassanian Persian metal plates with hunting secenes, also several books on the Sassanian arts (Ghirshman, Marshak) and military (Nikonnorov, Nicolle, Wilcox, Masia, Farokh, etc) , but I must admit I am not very fond of the book you pointed the link too due to some substantial errors in the plates etc. So I was trying to figure out if the bow stiff ends (Siyah) were tilted to the back or levelled. I opted for tilted ones but I guess they do look more level in some images, and more like the later Mongol bows. As per the entire bow I wanted to make it asymetrical. I can change the bow to look more levelled ... I have done some drawing of the Sassanian kings hunting by coping the plates eg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C6_DXX4pkmQ/S ... inter.jpeg
Saddle horns - well I imagined that he would be using the flat steppe saddle of the Saka-Sarmatian style - eg as found in Pazyryk kurgans or by the Chinese in the Tocharian context, with 2-piece pommel and cantle very small and separted in the middle by spacers, very similar to the modern Argentine gaucho saddles. Also I was thinking about the American nomads and the American Indian saddlery of the late 18-9th century.
But then they could have used the 'horned' saddle, although I think they would use that type of saddle for their lancers.
thanks
Re: Sassanian rider - jonwr - 06-23-2009
Dariusz
Do you have any links to more of the Sassanian plate pictures?
Jon R.
Re: Sassanian rider - daryush - 06-23-2009
There's a good gallery here:
[url:3aho5ck5]http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/virtual_museum/sasanian/Artifacts/metalwork.htm[/url]
Re: Sassanian rider - jonwr - 06-23-2009
Thank you.
That is much appreciated.
Jon R.
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-23-2009
hey,
I do have more paltes drawn but I will introduce them with some writing etc
Meantime there are some Sassanian plates (relief) with description - http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ugp/
this one i very famous, Sogidian and Sassanian from 7th or 8th century http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/mill ... es/A53.jpg
this one is from the MET - late 5th century, saddle with high pommel
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/05/wai/ho_34.33.htm
Chosrow I
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_n9Med_BGvtM/RzlxF ... ide%20repr ésentant%20une%20scène%20de%20chasse%2C%20VIIè.s.jpg
http://www.antikforever.com/Perse/Sassa ... ide06b.jpg
CHosrow I
my favorite in a closeup http://schnucks0.free.fr/Archerie/SassanidZoom3.jpg
and this one is very interesting - Sassanid draco bearers with shields http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco17.jpg from 5th century Egypt
you can look on wikipedia commons for many images of the Sassanid art http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sasanian_art
Re: Sassanian rider - jonwr - 06-25-2009
Reason I want all these pics(other than to add to my collection) is I'm about to commission a new bow. I have a 4AD Sassanid in mind. So need as much detail as I can scope out. I know contemporary art can be misleading to down right wrong.But the examples you have given do show a progression and change in design through approx 300 years.
You will not be seeing any pictures of it soon as there is about a years waiting list on horn bows from the fellow I want to make it.
Jon R.
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-25-2009
Quote:Reason I want all these pics(other than to add to my collection) is I'm about to commission a new bow. I have a 4AD Sassanid in mind. So need as much detail as I can scope out. I know contemporary art can be misleading to down right wrong.But the examples you have given do show a progression and change in design through approx 300 years.Hello Jon,
You will not be seeing any pictures of it soon as there is about a years waiting list on horn bows from the fellow I want to make it.
Jon R.
congrats on your endavour and passion for this bow.
I think I could help you with some images, just send me a pm or write : dario966 at yahoo dot com and I could create a pdf for you with my own "library'' images of much higher resolution etc -
As per my drawing I changed the bow's geometry a bit but haven't posted it to the blog yet, probably tonight
Re: Sassanian rider - daryush - 06-25-2009
Quote:Reason I want all these pics(other than to add to my collection) is I'm about to commission a new bow. I have a 4AD Sassanid in mind. So need as much detail as I can scope out. I know contemporary art can be misleading to down right wrong.But the examples you have given do show a progression and change in design through approx 300 years.
You will not be seeing any pictures of it soon as there is about a years waiting list on horn bows from the fellow I want to make it.
Jon R.
Do you have a drawing of what you're thinking of making?
I'm going to try build a Sassanian composite as well. But I'll be using a scaled down version of the dimensions given here but scaled down for a 29 inch arrow instead:
[url:3ave016w]http://www.atarn.org/magyar/niya_2.htm[/url]
Re: Sassanian rider - bachmat66 - 06-25-2009
Quote:hey,
Do you have a drawing of what you're thinking of making?
I'm going to try build a Sassanian composite as well. But I'll be using a scaled down version of the dimensions given here but scaled down for a 29 inch arrow instead:
[url:fmias311]http://www.atarn.org/magyar/niya_2.htm[/url]
great link - very useful article - many thanks!
Re: Sassanian rider - Gäiten - 06-25-2009
Very interesting.
Maybe you can help me. I have been looking for Sassanian Neshans, banners/standards and coat-of-arms.
Besides the excellent info in Dr. Farrokh`s Osprey titles it is difficult to find them.
I need them for my new units for the computer mod Invasio Barbarorum: Flagellum Dei (Version 8) .
I can not design these new models with such excellent details as you do here, but just for your information,
here is the world-exclusive preview of the new Pushtighban Royal Guards Savaran.
He belongs to the superheavy cavalry, armoured from head to toes, protective facemask, armed with a long kontos
and a long broadsword (as secondary weapon).
Enjoy!
BTW Mr. Wielec, if you do have contact with Dr. Farrokh, you can tell him, due his books I have gotten very interested
in all Sassanian and my fascination with ancient Iran (not only the Sassanian era (although it my favourite) is still increasing.
I hope he works on a new book.