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+--- Thread: Roman Salute (/showthread.php?tid=1540)
Roman Salute - Anonymous - 05-23-2004
I'm new to this forum so I apologize in advance if this subject has been discussed. I am having an on going debate with my colleagues in the History department. I maintain that the stiff arm Roman salute owes its origin more to Hollywood than to history. Could someone please enlighten me?<br>
Thanks,<br>
Steve (%%WORD38%Q7) <p></p><i></i>
Salutes - Matthew Amt - 05-24-2004
Ave!<br>
<br>
Welcome to the RAT board! Yeah, we did talk about salutes some time in the past, but that thread might not exist any more. We don't mind a rehash now and then.<br>
<br>
The straight-arm salute seems to be an actual Roman cavalry salute--it is shown on a statue of Marcus Aurelius, I think. The hand is tipped up more than the Nazi version, and there is no evidence for the Hollywood chest-thump, far as I know.<br>
<br>
There are a couple depictions of infantry who seem to be saluting in a very modern way, hand to the brow, though the fingers are slightly curled. No idea if the hand was snapped up, or snapped down, or if this was even a "standard" salute, or more of just a Roman "tipping his hat", or what. But it's what my group uses for a salute.<br>
<br>
That help? Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX <p></p><i></i>
Re: Salutes - Jeroen Pelgrom - 05-24-2004
if memory serves, the raised right arm salute was invented by Mussolini in the 30´s. Apart from several pictures on monuments showing some sort of salute, i don´t think that there was an official salute as we know it. <p>Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>
Salute - Anonymous - 05-24-2004
Quote:</em></strong><hr>there is no evidence for the Hollywood chest-thump, far as I know<hr><br>
<br>
I have to say, the chest thump has always struck me as rather unlikely - when you think about it, half the time you would have something in your 'saluting hand' anyway, and would end up poking your eye out with your own pilum. <p></p><i></i>
Re: Salute - Praefectusclassis - 05-24-2004
The infantryman tipping his hat is shown on the Ahenobarbus relief (part of which can be seen in the Romanarmy.com banner). But it could be just that: he's tipping his helmet up. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Salute - Jeroen Pelgrom - 05-24-2004
this is the relief Jasper is referring to:<br>
<br>
[url=http://80.65.232.176/Photos/00/00/03/56/ME0000035626_3.JPG" target="top]Ahenobarbus relief [/url].<br>
<br>
Is this a salute or just tipping his helmet? <p>Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pelgr003>pelgr003</A> at: 5/24/04 3:35 pm<br></i>
Re: Salute - John Maddox Roberts - 05-24-2004
I think the straight-arm salute precedes Mussolini. The Romantic painting by David, "The Oath of the Horatii" shows the three Roman brothers with their arms out stiffly, though the scene is an oath-taking rather than a salute. Maybe it was invented for the Victorian stage. <p></p><i></i>
Ahenobarbus monument and salute - Gregg - 05-24-2004
I used to be obsessed with that damn “Ahenobarbusâ€ÂÂ
Re: Ahenobarbus monument and salute - Anonymous - 05-24-2004
I agree...why would the guy 4th from the officer be saluting, while the 3 that are closer wouldn't be? <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
Re: Ahenobarbus monument and salute - Gashford - 05-25-2004
I know nothing about Roman salutes etc but it does strike me that the soldier looks bored, and is tipping his helmet back from his forehead.<br>
<br>
All the best <p>Graham Ashford
<hr />
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Re: Ahenobarbus monument and salute - Robert Vermaat - 05-25-2004
Hi Gregg,<br>
<br>
I seem to recall us discussing this, and that I thought so too..<br>
But hey, I seem to recall also another sarcophagus from germany, shoing a group of soldiers, one of them making the exact same gesture as the Ahenobarbus guy..<br>
<br>
Could it be that we both have made an 180-degree turn in opinions?<br>
<br>
I'll continue looking for the image, and I'll post it here when I find it!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Salute - Gregg - 05-26-2004
Robert,<br>
<br>
Did we discuss that before? I remember other discussions about the Ahenobarbus monument (as I said, I was obsessed), but I don't recall any discussion about the German sarcophagus you mention. Any other "non-traditional" depictions of Roman soldiers would be quite fascinating. If you can find a photo of it I'd love to see it!<br>
<br>
Gregg <p></p><i></i>
Re: Salute - Robert Vermaat - 05-27-2004
Hi Gregg,<br>
<br>
Found it! No, we did not discuss this one, and neither is it german as I believed, but it was from a new German book on the Limes: Kemkes, Martin et al (2002): Am Rande des Imperiums, Der Limes - Grenze Roms zu den Barbaren, (Limesmuseum Aalen).<br>
<br>
This is the late-1st. c. funerary monument of T. Flavius Mikkalus, from Perinthos (Turkey):<br>
<img src="http://www.wansdyke21.org.uk/mikkalus_sarcofaag.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
It clearly shows a soldier saluting, no question about it!<br>
<br>
Below a detailed one, next to the Ahenobarbus one:<br>
<img src="http://www.wansdyke21.org.uk/mikkalus_groet.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/Ahenobarbus-Legionaries2.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
What do you think?<br>
They also discussed this on [url=http://www.novaroma.org/forum/mainlist/2000/2000-07-29.html" target="top]Forum Romanum[/url], and there is a publication:<br>
Kramer, S. 1994: 'Das Grabmonument des T. Flavius Mikkalus aus Perinth', Kölner Jahrbuch 27, 99-116.<br>
<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 5/28/04 6:55 am<br></i>
Re: Salute - Praefectusclassis - 05-27-2004
Ohhh. That one! It's already provisionally in the imagebase, but not yet visible<br>
<p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
...like a red-headed stepchild. - Gregg - 05-27-2004
Wow, that is interesting! The two soldiers on the far left almost look as if they are having a conversation. The guy on the far right does look like he might be saluting, either that or trying desperately to hold his helmet on in a stiff wind. The officer on the horse looks like he's about to smack someone...<br>
<br>
The guy on the Ahenobarbus monument seems to have his hand more to his forehead, while the guy on this monument has his hand more towards the top of his helmet. Also, it would make more sense for the guy on the German monument to be saluting, since he is being approached (at speed, it would seem) by an officer. On the Ahenobarbus monument the soldier with his hand to his forhead has no one to salute. I think the similarity is just coincidental.<br>
<br>
Gregg<br>
<p></p><i></i>