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Similarities, differences in European languages - Justin of the New Yorkii - 08-09-2009
This isn't about ancient history, but I think RAT might have some members who could help me out with these questions:
1) I read somewhere that the Dutch language and the German language are both "West Germanic languages that have very similar vocabularies." But does this mean, for example, that a typical Dutchman could walk up to a stranger in Berlin and strike up a conversation with them? Or would this be the case only if that Dutchman had gone out of his way to study German?
2) What about Norwegians and Swedes? I know that they were both one country for a long time; does this mean that native Norwegian speakers can talk to strangers in Stockholm without any trouble?
I ask this because I have an Italian friend who never actually studied Spanish, but he claims he can visit Spain and talk to the locals without any problem at all because the languages are so similar.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - jvrjenivs - 08-09-2009
I can only give my opinion to the first question,as I only have knowledge about Dutch (my first language), German, English and Frensch.
Indeed Dutch and German are very similar, so when we do our best we can understand each other, some words are the same, some are different. But here we have to take care. Because German is not German and Dutch is not Dutch. (See also the difference between UK english and US english). When we talk about formal Dutch (ABN) and the German you got teached at school, yes it is possible, but every area has his own language. Some German (including Berlin as per your example) can be quite different as the 'normal' German. But, here on the border, where I live, it's no problem to talk to each other in you own language.
This wouldn't mean I'm happy that I also speak German, which makes it quite more easy to talk (you can be sure they understand and don't have to speak slowly so they can think about what you are talking about. It's not that similar that it's almost the same and they will understand your immediately without knowledge of the other language).
Indeed I think the other comparisons you make are indeed also very similar.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Jona Lendering - 08-09-2009
Quote:I read somewhere that the Dutch language and the German language are both "West Germanic languages that have very similar vocabularies." But does this mean, for example, that a typical Dutchman could walk up to a stranger in Berlin and strike up a conversation with them? Or would this be the case only if that Dutchman had gone out of his way to study German?There's little to add to what Jurjen said. If Dutch and Germans speak slowly, we can communicate with each other pretty well. The greatest Dutch poet, Joost van den Vondel, was born in Germany. When I was young and there were not so many TV channels, we (Dutch) often were watching German TV, which -even as children- we could understand.
But that does not mean that we speak each other's languages perfectly. They have different grammars (German has four cases; Dutch, like English, only two); words can have slightly different or even opposed meanings, and so on. Yet, Dutch is, of all languages closest to German;* Dutch has many loanwords/barbarisms, nearly 45% of them from German.
You may find this article interesting. I certainly like the subject matter. The older I get, and the more I have to write in English, the more I realize how important Dutch is to me. If I would have to name one single marker of my identity, I think "Dutch speaking" is more important than "Dutch nationality", and I would find it hard to say whether my language is more or less important to me than being a European or an Amsterdammer.
*Frisian excluded; Frisian shares a grammar with Dutch, and is, technically, not a language but a dialect.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - jvrjenivs - 08-09-2009
Heah, Jona, that's a thing I even didn't realised myself. I indeed also watched German television from childhood, without any problem. I also know of some German people who have the same experience watching Dutch telly.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Jona Lendering - 08-09-2009
Quote:I indeed also watched German television from childhood, without any problem.TV unites us, and divides us. Twenty years ago, with few channels, the Netherlands and Flanders were closer to each other than today, and Flanders and Wallonia were closer to each other. A Dutchman knew Armand Pien (Flemish weather forecaster). Now, we live in more separate spheres. I do not think my life is poorer without Armand Pien, but Raymond van het Groenewoud is certainly someone I miss.
Quote: also know of some German people who have the same experience watching Dutch telly.I even know an Assyriologist who learned Dutch by watching a Dutch soap! (GTST, if that is relevant.)
Quote:I ask this because I have an Italian friend who never actually studied Spanish, but he claims he can visit Spain and talk to the locals without any problem at all because the languages are so similar.It is part of the jokes in the Italian movie Il ciclone, in which Spanish women arrive in Tuscany - with predictable consequences. Italians of different parts of the country (Tuscany and Naples) all trying to speak Spanish, you can see a part of the fun.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Tiberius Clodius Corvinus - 08-09-2009
As a German I can only acknowledge that Jona and Jurjen said, although I usually find Dutch people by far more able to understand Germans than vice-versa. (... this applies actually to most of our neighbours and their respective languages)
However this may be a matter of "training", because when I read or hear Dutch I'm surprised that I understand a good deal of it, (especially if I know the subject of conversation). At least I think.
I would probably decribe it as a really hard german dialect if I didn't know better and these are somestimes virtually impossible to comprehend even for Germans.In that respect I remember that in the states back in the day Germans there often referred to as Dutch. May be a result of the similiarities in the languages.
About your Italian friend. I don't know too much of Italian or Spanish, but I doubt, he could talk to them without trouble. A portugese friend of mine told me that even Portugese and Spanish have many differences and both languages are as close as Dutch and German, approximately.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Mitra - 08-09-2009
Quote:I ask this because I have an Italian friend who never actually studied Spanish, but he claims he can visit Spain and talk to the locals without any problem at all because the languages are so similar.
Yes they are similar, if spoken slow it is not very hard understand the major part of spanish words. The same, but a little harder for the french language.
Two fun stories:
A friend of mine as studied in Barcelona university with Erasmus and the for the first times he don't speak well the spanish. He want cook a hen but don't know the corresponding spanish word (after he know is the same of italian, "gallina"); he enter in poultry butcher,he see chicken in spanish is th same of italian, "pollo", so he think the she-chicken will be "polla" or anyway the people can understand i want the female of pollo. So he ask the "polla". All the people in the store start to see him and laugh. After he understand that "polla" in spanish is a dirty word which indicate the male member
D , but is very different from polla).A collegue one time tell me that during a work period in Romany, he see a collegue speak with a local person without problems and certainty. After he ask to him if he speak romanian language, he answer he don't speak it, but he spoke with that person in Foggia's dialect (is a south italian dialect, from Puglia, almost incomprehensible for me, a Lombard). "He understand me well" he answer to my collegue.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Medusa Gladiatrix - 08-09-2009
When knowing the North German Dialects (Plattdeutsch) it is easier to understand at least roughly Dutch which is not surprise as the people on the Frisian Islands and the Western part of Niedersachsen are living close to the Netherlands. I know a little bit of the Plattdeutsch spoken in Hamburg so I can understand a bit of Dutch.
When I was on a Hurtigruten ship in Norway a Swedish passenger spoke to the Norwegian purser in Swedish and the purser replied in Norwegian and they both understood each other well. Of course there are some words different or one word is having different meanings in those two language similar to the Italian/Spanish example Mitra stated. But as long as both parts are willing they understand each other.
Apropos Mitra, you know that when you put butter on your bread (burro) for the Spanish speaking you put a donkey on your bread. For them burro is a donkey and mantequilla is the butter.
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Mitra - 08-09-2009
HI Medusa
Yes I know, is one of most famous error of italians in Spain, with afamado (essere affamato in italian is "the have hungry", but in spanish is to be famous; to tell the true "famoso" exist both in spanish that in italian)
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Jona Lendering - 08-09-2009
Quote:with afamado (essere affamato in italian is "the have hungry", but in spanish is to be famous; to tell the true "famoso" exist both in spanish that in italian)Reminds me of how I ordered, in a Roman restaurant, something that could be brought quickly, because I was very "famoso" instead of "affamato". The waiter must have thought that those celebrities were getting increasingly pretentious. And of course, my ice cream ought to have been pesca, not pesce (peach, instead of fish).
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - recondicom - 08-09-2009
Riddle of an archer.
Spring; sommer
Autom; wind dert.
Spring; sumer
Autum wind
Spring; summer,
Autumn; Wynnyann
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Mitra - 08-10-2009
Quote:Mitra:1zsfxtoh Wrote:with afamado (essere affamato in italian is "the have hungry", but in spanish is to be famous; to tell the true "famoso" exist both in spanish that in italian)Reminds me of how I ordered, in a Roman restaurant, something that could be brought quickly, because I was very "famoso" instead of "affamato". The waiter must have thought that those celebrities were getting increasingly pretentious. And of course, my ice cream ought to have been pesca, not pesce (peach, instead of fish).
Lucky you are not in South Italia, because "pesce" here is also the "nickname" for the male member
(at north we call it "uccello" (bird) )
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Jona Lendering - 08-10-2009
Quote:Lucky you are not in South Italia, because "pesce" here is also the "nickname" for the male memberAhem. That error, I made in Spain, ordering a coño instead of a cono of icecream. :oops:
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Justin of the New Yorkii - 08-10-2009
Thank you everyone for the informative responses.
Quote:You may find this article interesting. I certainly like the subject matter.
Ha! "A nearly fatal throat disease!" That's exactly what I think when I look at a map of the Netherlands and I see names like "Tytsjerksteradiel" and "Zwartewatersklooster."
Re: Similarities, differences in European languages - Jona Lendering - 08-10-2009
Quote:Ha! "A nearly fatal throat disease!" That's exactly what I think when I look at a map of the Netherlands and I see names like "Tytsjerksteradiel" and "Zwartewatersklooster."You really made me burst with laughter.