+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Greek helmets galore (/showthread.php?tid=15793)
Re: Greek helmets galore - PMBardunias - 09-30-2009
Quote:I readily admit to being no expert at all when it comes to this subject, however, I was wondering if anybody had any information upon the development (if any) of the Pilos helmet?
The Pilos was a felt cap worn commonly in the Peloponnese (something very similar seems to have been worn by Phoenicians, so it may originate with them). In the 5th c, we see two developmental lines of civilian hats becoming metal helmets, the pilos and the Boeotian. In the case of the Pilos, it was probably worn underneath corinthian helmets, so the progression goes from wearing a pilos+metal Corinthian to wearing just a felt pilos to wearing a pilos made of metal. The middle step is the tricky part and they may never have worn just a felt pilos commonly in battle (perhaps poor hoplites or rear rankers?)
As to the form of the pilos, it does one thing very well: defend from descending blows. Its somewhat conical profile is ideal for this and in some cases the peak can be very high. The face and neck are largely unguarded, which has led some to belive that they made up for this by holding the shield rim up before the face. Personally I think the answer to some extent might be that in crowded conditions of phalanx warfare, especially during othismos, the most effective strikes come from above because there are other men's heads in the way of lateral strikes and proximity limits your other options. Looking down, a sea of pilos helms provides few targets.
In the later pilos helms, late 4th c early 3rd, we do see the attachment of neck-guards and cheek pieces of the same general type seen on other helmets of the time. To me this only points out the short-comings of the pilos for opened warfare.
I should mention that conical helmets are very common, so there is no reason to beg a special explanation. The form is different from other conical helms, like the Negau, or Gallic and Assyrian/Uratian types, but perhaps functionally similar. That said we always need to look at transition like the hoplite's helmet in the context of what was available locally.
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 09-30-2009
Quote:Gaius Julius Caesar:1t4j0qy0 Wrote:Was this a find from the excavated area under the museum? EDIT: OK I some how missed the word Metro- in front of the word excavations.... :roll:
Any photos?
Here! Found on the net ...
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 09-30-2009
Some treats for my devoted readers and critics! :wink:
The helmets from Bubuj, Kamenka and the one in Madrid!
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 09-30-2009
Can anyone of you submit me the paper: E. Jarva, In search of Xenophon's ideal helmet. An alternate view of the kranos boiotourges?
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-01-2009
Quote:MeinPanzer:trm6v0x6 Wrote:Going back a page, could you give some more information on this helmet? Is it one from the Guttmann collection? Also, if it lacks a frontlet, how can it be composed of seven pieces? Wouldn't it be a six-piece helmet then?
This helmet is published in: A. d’Amicis u. a., Catalogo del Museo Nazionale Archeologico di Taranto 1, 3. Atleti e Guerrieri. Tradizioni aristocratiche a Taranto tra VI. e V. Sec. A. C. (1997) Nr. 119.2
It was found in a tomb near Canosa. It has a "Stirnbügel" (frontlet?), but no "Stirnschirm" (visor?). Concerning the hellenistic helmets, frontlet and visor are composed out of one piece. This helmet from Canosa has a frontlet, but instead a visor, there is a plain area directly above the forehead. This plain area and the frontlet are one piece, analogous to the frontlet and the visor.
I see, thanks!
Quote:I've found images!
Look, there's a triangle-piece and the neck-guard is also a separate piece!
Where is this helmet from?
Quote:Here! Found on the net ...
Thanks a lot for posting this. Given your previous statement that it was unlike any Hellenistic helmet you've ever seen, I'm a little let down, I have to admit! It just looks like a standard Attic with a small Boeotian brim. Very nice find, nonetheless, which seems to be in pretty good condition. A brand new hybrid to confound further attempts at helmet classification.
Quote:Can anyone of you submit me the paper: E. Jarva, In search of Xenophon's ideal helmet. An alternate view of the kranos boiotourges?
I have a copy. Send me a PM.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Ghostmojo - 10-01-2009
Quote:... In the later pilos helms, late 4th c early 3rd, we do see the attachment of neck-guards and cheek pieces of the same general type seen on other helmets of the time. To me this only points out the short-comings of the pilos for opened warfare ...
Thanks for that response Paul
. I am interested in these later versions. I wonder if anybody has any pictures or illustrations of such later Pilos helms? I will google around a bit and see what I can find, but if anybody on the forum has anything to share that would be great 8) .
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-01-2009
Quote:Thanks a lot for posting this. Given your previous statement that it was unlike any Hellenistic helmet you've ever seen, I'm a little let down, I have to admit! It just looks like a standard Attic with a small Boeotian brim. Very nice find, nonetheless, which seems to be in pretty good condition. A brand new hybrid to confound further attempts at helmet classification.
I will contact the Athenian Ephorate and try to publish it in my work! Let down, why? Well, it's the only preserved original of this type I'm aware of, but I know depictions of this type, eg on grave-stelai from Sidon! See attachment!
Quote:Thanks for that response Paul
This is an example of a late Pilos from the Guttmann collection, supposingly from Paestum.
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-01-2009
For Giannis, the helmet in Berlin from Pergamon!
Re: Greek helmets galore - PMBardunias - 10-01-2009
Do any of you guys have an image of the pilos in the Louvre, # 1105, c6958, with a griffon figurine as a crest holder?
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-01-2009
You mean this one?
But beware! The griffin on top, the sandals(!) on the sides and the coin are later additions by Campana!
Re: Greek helmets galore - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-01-2009
Thanks for posting it Oracle! It does have some archaic characteristics although the overall style is clearly hellenistic. To me,the tripple crest italian helmet you posted in the previous page looked more archaic,even if it was constructed in several pieces.
The crest attachment reminded me of this one:
I think this is its front:
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-01-2009
Quote: I think this is its front:
Yes!
Re: Greek helmets galore - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-01-2009
Nice collection of helmets!
I have a photo of what could be a forbearer to these from the BM
![[Image: DSCF0252-2.jpg]](http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/RomanLegioX/DSCF0252-2.jpg)
Re: Greek helmets galore - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-01-2009
![[Image: DSCF0251-2.jpg]](http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/RomanLegioX/DSCF0251-2.jpg)
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-01-2009
Quote:I will contact the Athenian Ephorate and try to publish it in my work! Let down, why? Well, it's the only preserved original of this type I'm aware of, but I know depictions of this type, eg on grave-stelai from Sidon! See attachment!
It would be exciting to see a brand new helmet like that published, and I would also be very curious to hear of the context of the find (and any accompanying grave goods). The only reason I said I was let down is because when you stated that it was unlike any helmet you'd ever seen my imagination ran wild and I thought it could be some bizarre and fantastical hybrid. So I have no reason to be disappointed with the helmet, but only my imagination!
As for the helmet on the Sidon stele, I would have to disagree with you... I think it is related to the Attic/Thraco-Attic type, but it is its own distinct type, since it has A) no frontlet/volutes, B) a very prominent visor, and C) a "boxy" or wide crest. Most of the soldiers on the Sidon stelai wear these, as do some other figures in Ptolemaic art, but I don't think I've seen them being worn by soldiers of other Hellenistic kingdoms. By the way, if you want more photographs of these stelai (that photograph you posted is one from my site which I took when I visited the Istanbul Archaeological Museum), I can supply them to you as well.
Oh, and in case you aren't aware of it, a stele was published in the most recent issue of the American Journal of Archaeology found near the ancient city of Herakleia in Macedonia dated to c. 300 BC which shows a cavalryman wearing a nicely-rendered Attic helmet. I think it is one of the earliest representations of the fully-matured seven-piece Attic helmet, and the only one I can think of which is depicted being worn by a cavalryman.