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+--- Thread: Greek helmets galore (/showthread.php?tid=15793)
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-13-2009
Quote: Similar, but I don't think that's it, unless your photos were pre-restoration, as its got long cheek pieces as well. RH
Is your reference Dintsis Pl. 57, 4?
That's the same helmet, trust me.
As I said earlier, there are only two examples of this particular type preserved, the helmet from Vergina and this one from Canosa. Depictions are on coins of Orthagoreia.
Quote:I think you were searching for this helmet?
Khaire Giannis
Yes, that's the one from Marvinci, now in Skopje.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Cincinnatus - 10-13-2009
Could be the same, see attachment. You haven't omitted Christie's NY, 2006 of the same type either I suppose?
RH
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-13-2009
Quote:Could be the same, see attachment. You haven't omitted Christie's NY, 2006 of the same type either I suppose?
RH
I think it's the same, but do you have more images of this one?
The mentioned helmet from Christie's is a forgery.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Cincinnatus - 10-13-2009
Quite heavily restored yes, forgery, I don't think so, but it is worth further consideration, did you handle it in person?
I may have some other photos of this Taranto piece around, Have you got any good, color images of Kegels with crests, etc.
RH
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-13-2009
But everything from the art market is forgery, didn't you know that? :wink:
I have some images of the two kegels ex Guttmann, but apparently you have the book "Frühgriechische Bronzehelme".
Better images from the horned kegel from Ordona you find in: M. Egg, Italische Helme (1986).
I have photographed all images depicting greek helmets from the old Lipperheide book, there are some kegels, too.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Cincinnatus - 10-13-2009
We've got all of this, and all of Kunze's kegel's from Olympia, its clear color images of some of these early published pieces we need, perhaps some of these kegel helmets were lost in the war?
RH
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-13-2009
Well, you have to ask the museum for photographs then!
PS: who is "we"?
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-13-2009
Quote:As I said earlier, there are only two examples of this particular type preserved, the helmet from Vergina and this one from Canosa. Depictions are on coins of Orthagoreia.
Isn't it three with the Marvinci example? BTW, that picture of the Marvinci example is of a facsimile, and not the original helmet.
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-13-2009
Quote:The Oracle:21tr4iz1 Wrote:Isn't it three with the Marvinci example? BTW, that picture of the Marvinci example is of a facsimile, and not the original helmet.
I think there's a visor missing.
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-13-2009
Quote:I think there's a visor missing.
Well, it might have had a small visor, but that area is corroded. But even so, the Vergina helmet doesn't have one either!
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-14-2009
Sure, but a typological detail motivates me to reconstruct a visor on the Marvinci-helmet.
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-14-2009
Quote:Sure, but a typological detail motivates me to reconstruct a visor on the Marvinci-helmet.
But you just argued that the Marvinci helmet shouldn't be included in the group because it didn't have a visor.... And if studying Hellenistic helmets has taught me anything, it is that there was so much mixing and matching going on with different elements that we can't rely on typologies to reconstruct missing portions of helmets.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Cincinnatus - 10-14-2009
I agree with Ruben, I see no reason to get too hung up on the visor issue, when each example is unique, apart from the Melian Attic helmets which look to be of similar workmanship. These helmets were made in different workshops for different clientele, some wanted visors, some wanted crests. The fact that they are made of iron has ensured that very few have been able to survive underground to the present day. Which gives us a very skewed view of their production in antiquity.
Furthermore, find spots and archaeological context are really of little consequence when discussing ancient Greek helmets, as the place where they finally came to rest in antiquity tells us very little about where, when, and for whom they were made since they were passed on as heirloom objects, taken as booty in war, dedicated at distant sanctuaries, and otherwise exchanged far beyond their place (and time) of manufacture.
Randall
Re: Greek helmets galore - MeinPanzer - 10-14-2009
Quote:Furthermore, find spots and archaeological context are really of little consequence when discussing ancient Greek helmets, as the place where they finally came to rest in antiquity tells us very little about where, when, and for whom they were made since they were passed on as heirloom objects, taken as booty in war, dedicated at distant sanctuaries, and otherwise exchanged far beyond their place (and time) of manufacture.
I'd really have to disagree with you here. As with any artefact, the findspot and date is central to the understanding of its context. Helmets, like many types of objects, were moved around a lot and could be used for some time, but where they are found and in what context tells us a lot about them. For instance, we know that Attic helmets are almost exclusively employed in Greece and the Hellenistic east between the end of the fourth and the first century BC. If you find such a helmet in, say, Sicily, it would tell us something very important about trade and the desirability of such helmets.
To take a non-Greek example, in the last two centuries BC or so the Montefortino helmet becomes the most popular helmet among the early Sarmatians living in the northern littoral of the Black Sea. We find these helmets far away from their original area of production, but comparisons with contemporary Italian examples in the details of their production tells us a lot about Roman contacts with the region and the popularity of such helms and their desirability, as well as allowing us to use a whole different set of data (Sarmatian material culture) to date them.
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 10-14-2009
Quote:But you just argued that the Marvinci helmet shouldn't be included in the group because it didn't have a visor.... And if studying Hellenistic helmets has taught me anything, it is that there was so much mixing and matching going on with different elements that we can't rely on typologies to reconstruct missing portions of helmets.
Only better photos of the helmet will solve the visor issue, it's just my preliminary opinion that there's a visor missing.
Quote:Furthermore, find spots and archaeological context are really of little consequence when discussing ancient Greek helmets
Only an art-dealer can say something like this.