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Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Doc - 10-02-2009
First of all, I think that this is another excellent book by Mr. Sumner. However, I have one question and one comment if I may.
I agree that the evidence seems to suggest that the Sisak helmet is a centurio helmet. Has any analysis been done to show that the decoration is actually gilt?
Also one point I would like to make is that people tend to overlook the Gallic D helmet entirely. This helmet is just as if not more ornate than the Sisak helmet. Unfortunately, the D no longer exists as an entity since it was destroyed. However, if one were to read the original article by Lindenschmit, it had silver rossettes (like Sisak), all around rope edging, no front/back hooks (like Sisak) for a normal crest, the peak was inlaid, a double slot for the crest holder that seems to suggest that the design was made so that the crest does not rock side to side. There is no mention in the Lindenschmit article if any silver was on the bowl which could be expected in the way studies were conducted a century ago. There is also no mention in the article about the rossette borders. However, when I spoke to Brian Stobbs, he found out from the museum curator who analyzed the piece where it is currently held, that the small fragment of the browband with the rossettes showed that the rossettes have an astragal border which was something never mentioned by Robinson nor Lindenschmit.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-02-2009
Ahh, Brians creation....drool.......
Do you have any pictures of the rosette details Doc? I don't recall that precise element of the helmet.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Doc - 10-02-2009
Thanks Byron.
No, I do not have them at the moment. I will dig through my photos and see it there are any pics with details. When Brian was making that helmet, he noticed something on Robinsons photo and was not sure what to make of it. Thus he contacted the museum and the curator mentioned that what he was seeing was an astragal edge.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - PhilusEstilius - 10-03-2009
Byron.
Here is a picture showing the astragal type rosettes refered to by Paolo, with astragal we have small beads but in between these beads is what one might refer to as a sausage shape rather than just a continuation of beads for a border.
It is a type of decoration used in both Greek and Roman history.
http://www.northumberland-computers.com/sextima/gd.jpg
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-03-2009
Ahh, thanks Brian.
So its a bead -sausage-bead-sausage-etc pattern!
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Doc - 10-03-2009
Thanks Brian for posting the picture.
Byron, your description is correct.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - PhilusEstilius - 10-05-2009
Byron.
That is correct as Paolo mentions and infact it is often seen in linear form as well even in sculpture.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Tarbicus - 10-11-2009
On the subject of the book, I only had a chance to browse through it so far.
However, the silver Toledo helmet is still described as having doubts cast on its authenticity. The simple fact is that it has been absolutely debunked as a fake by the museum itself, and has been for some time now. I have the anlaysis report, which is freely available from the museum if you call them.
The leather "segmentata" piece in the Egypt section of the British Museum is also highly dubious as a "segemntata", and corresponds more closely IMHO to simple back supports or even a charioteer's girdle as so often seen in artistic depictions.
I also can't help but feel that the plethora of leather armour descriptions would be more usefully described as also possibly being felt or linen when taken from representations.
Great to see another book on the subject, and certainly there is much new to see, as well as some cracking illustrations by Graham.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-11-2009
There is another similar helmet on the same page I think, which looks to be made from 2 halves.
That I take is another fake?
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - caiusbeerquitius - 10-11-2009
Yes, so it seems.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Doc - 10-11-2009
I am still wondering why noone had responded to my post about the Gallic D helmet. I am just trying to find out why this helmet is overlooked.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-11-2009
It does make you wonder!
Brian was able to obtain the report from Lindenschmit, which is how he was able to do such a
spankin rendition of it!
Perhaps it is the very fact it is no longer in existence, and very few people know of the report,
that causes them to bypass it?
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Doc - 10-11-2009
Byron,
I think that what you said is spot on. The helmet really does not exist except for its fragments. Thus one must read the original report.
I believe Robinson thinks that it probably belonged to an officer. However, if I am remembering Lindenschmit correctly, he thinks it was not. Maybe Brian can shed some light on the thoughts of Lindenschmit.
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - Matthew Amt - 10-11-2009
Quote:I am still wondering why noone had responded to my post about the Gallic D helmet. I am just trying to find out why this helmet is overlooked.
Well, the impression I got was that Sumner and D'Amato were not attempting to redo all the work done by Robinson and other authors, but to bring in a lot of new material. Since that Gallic D was already shown in a couple books, so probably it wasn't seen as essential material. Though I agree with you that a more detailed analysis of it should be more widely available!
Actually, we'd all probably be amazed at how much does NOT get mentioned by most books, these days...
Matthew
Re: Imperial Roman Soldier (Sumner new book) - PhilusEstilius - 10-11-2009
I have to say that having made the "Gallic D" it does make me wonder just what was the state not only of panic at the museum after the RAF dropped their bomb.
There must have been a real situation of shock and horror and total devastation with bits all over the place, but just how was the mess cleared up for I find it difficult to understand how all that we have today of that helmet is the left cheekplate and a most delicate browband with also two silver rosettes.
I speak from the point of view of having made the peak with all of it's inlay, and of course knowing just how robust a structure it was and how it went together I can't understand how that is not there today.
What realy interests me is the clear up afterwards for did much just go into bins or bags, or was material taken to other museums for safe keeping and this helmet is still around in other store rooms and no one has picked these bits up and studied them with any interest, ie the "Gallic D" could still be around and we don't know it ??