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Draping the chiton - Printable Version

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RE: Draping the chiton - etrusker86 - 05-08-2016

(05-08-2016, 10:13 AM)Velites77 Wrote: that's exactly my feeling, the openings for my arms are Always too  small and the fabric around my waist too much,

i'm 175 cm tall and i weight 75 kilos, i'm not particularly thin but i'm broad shouldered and small waisted,

anyway, my interest is shifted toward the peloponnesian war period and even later, so i'll quit the chiton in favour of a exomis tunic for my next soft kit.

probably for some of you it will sound a bit like an heresy, but after further experiments with scrap cloth, i have found that a piece of fabric of about  90cm x 140 cm is pretty much what i need for my exomis and even for my chlamys, it is not thight at all and looks pretty good, i have just to find a fabric that is softer that the one that currently i have

the first chiton i have made is in bright Yellow shade that is a way too flashy for me, for my next i'll experiment with neutral shades of colours, greys, maroons or drab

Well I can't tell you which measures you have to take, but for the chlamys I advise you to go with at least the 90cm x 200. As I almost have the same build as you, I can assure you it will be the right size.

For the exomis/chiton I would still suggest the same. I once just removed one pin and changed the position of the second and I think it made quit a good exomis.

For colours, ahm antiquity was quite bright; red, blue, yellow and greens in different shades seemed to  have been quite common.

Anyhow keep us updated about your progress, I am looking forward to hear how it works out!


RE: Draping the chiton - Velites77 - 05-11-2016

90 x 200 doesen't work for me, it could be fine for the chlamys but not for the exomis, the armhole is enormous and it is very difficult to pull on the fabric,

for sure 90 cm it is the perfect height for me, i have still to settle the lenght but it should be around 150 cm.

at this point i have to ask: there is a specific reason for the general perception that greek clothes were so flowing and rich in fabric? i mean, there is a specific contemporary source that specify the dimensions of the cloth used for making garments?

the clothings that i see on Marbles and vases are not puffy or flowing, but rather heavily pleated that may indicate an adbundance of fabric, but after the pleating the result i see, is a rather close fitting garment, and i'm under the same impression of Giannis, that the chiton is a taylored garment

probably it would be possible to abtain the same result putting a tons of pins, but why? tayloring is much more easier


RE: Draping the chiton - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-11-2016

Pleating in linen can be achieved by tightly twisting the fabric into a knot while wet and let it dry over heat in that position for almost a couple of days depending on the environment.

Pleating in wool can be achieved and is also backed by archaeological finds, by twisting the threads of the warp and weave under tension.

Some chitons might have had pleats sewn on the shoulders, but this will not make the garment less bulky at the waist.

Finally, artistic representations very often show very bulky garments, especially in the periods where realistic depictions were more popular. Archaic depictions for instance tend to show very tight garments, so tight that they could only work if they were modern elastic.
Late classical depictions wanted to be both realistic and show the beautiful human body. They compromised the two by showing figures in action and their garments conveniently blown against their bodies and flowing behind them. This is an illusion though, making the chitons look narrow. Look at the Nereid monument as an example of this.

And if the length of the fabric needs to be A to accommodate neck and arm holes, it can't be <A at the rest of the garment.

As a result, the answer to your problem is correct materials.


RE: Draping the chiton - Velites77 - 05-11-2016

Giannis,

if you talk about a pre- pleated garment, i agree that you need a fair lenght of material, but the fact that the pleats are already gathered makes clothings much easier to pull on and the general effect more good looking,

the red chiton that you wear at the beginning of the thread it is one of the few, if not the only, reconstruction that looks like a vase painting in general appearance among the many i have seen around

the quantity of fabric necessary for a certain garmen is very often over stimated, i have experienced it while doing scottish 17th - 18th century reenacting, and trying to figure out the amount of tartan for my great kilt... but probably it depends also from your personal taste as probably it was the case in the antique times,

for sure the right kind of material is a necessity, and probably i have not still found the right one.

another question: if i have well understood it is from the 5th century onward that clothings start to be more fitted, like a roman tunic, right?


RE: Draping the chiton - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-12-2016

In this photo do you find my chiton bulky and unlike ancient depictions? Note that the shoulders are sewn for about 5 cm but not pleated.
     
I am 1,78 cm tall and 72 kg so a bit slimmer than you. In the next photo you can see that it actually follows the elbow to elbow rule, and the linen one i wear underneath is even wider, utilizing 3 meters length of fabric, which as been pleated by twisting.
   

I wouldn't say that chitons became more tailored, and i wouldn't say that roman tunics were narrower than greek chitons. It is, of course, a misconception but the more knowlegeable in roman clothing will verify this.

Lastly, i would like to point out that due to the vast amount of fashion choices (even if looking minor to us) it is hard to be accurate with generalizations. At any given time there were narrower and wider clothes, but generally as far as i can see reenactors tend to use narrower than justifiable in their reconstructions, both in greek and roman reenacting.

Khaire
Giannis


RE: Draping the chiton - Velites77 - 05-13-2016

surely, as you have pointed out, i need to find the right fabric and learn to use it,

your chiton looks good, and the effect is completely different than mine, the people around you are wearing much narrower clothings than you, right?


RE: Draping the chiton - Robert Vermaat - 05-13-2016

Velites77, adjust your real name signature please.


RE: Draping the chiton - Velites77 - 05-13-2016

how can i do that, Robert?

i believe i have got it


RE: Draping the chiton - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2016

Christian Cameron, who is arming me up, is wearing a woolen chiton which is even lighter than mine, and probably no linen underchiton. I believe the material he is using is as much as mine, but he has sewn the shoulders for a linger length than mine, which allows for less slag, and his chiton is shorter than mine, which results to a smaller kolpos (the overfold of the belt), all of which makes his chiton look narrower than mine. I have to point out that if i had time to try on my cuirass before the event i would have chosen a shorter whiton. The cuirass presses the material close to the body and makes the chiton look longer. But i have receive the cuirass the night before the event. In the photo it is the first time i put on the cuirass with the rest of the reenacting equipment.

The other man wears a narrower chiton, which in fact has armholes in the sides and does not follow the archaic and early classical model in my opinion.

Khaire
Giannis


RE: Draping the chiton - Athena Areias - 05-16-2016

I have had some trouble getting my chiton(s) to drape, also.  Things I have learned:

The linen needs to be 5 oz. weight or lighter.  Fabric by the yard suitable for dress shirts or blouses.  Handkerchief linen by the yard is around 3 oz. weight and might be too sheer for modern sensibilities.  Linen need to be washed (before or after making your chiton) in cool water with detergent AND something like or exactly like 20 Mule Team Borax.  This will remove the tons of oils and finishers left in the fabric after weaving.  My best chiton became most soft and pliable after washing in the borax and soap.

It is very hard to find a lightweight suitable wool fabric.  I found men's plain wool large prayer shawls (loki) from India to be affordable if you search a bit.  (9 feet x 4 feet worked for me).  Maple Clothing in Canada sometimes has them.  Another source is ExoticIndia dot com.  Watch for sales.  I got a very light shawl for 40USD.  Plain pashminas might work if you are very thin, but are more expensive and more sheer.

Good luck.


RE: Draping the chiton - Titus Vettidius Cladus - 03-29-2019

Hello! I'm try to figureing out where should I stitch and gather the plain material. I'm about 172 tall and from elbow to elbow about 90 somthing, so I decided I should stick with about 180/200 cm of material and then fold it. But I'm still unsure. Where should the armhole be? I read they should be on the upper hem, is it true?


RE: Draping the chiton - etrusker86 - 03-29-2019

Hello Titus!

There are no armholes.
As you said you have the fabric, fold in the middel and then sew it together at the open side.
You can then either pin it with a fibulae or sew it together at the shoulders.
There are no real armholes as the fabric between shoulder and the sides of the chiton falls down, there you put your arms through.
I hope this helps you.

All the best.


RE: Draping the chiton - Jack Svendsen - 03-29-2019

Are there any sources stating that dark/black colours existed in Ancient Greek Chitons? I'm looking towards making more of a Rustic chiton, more fitting for a Psiloi slinger rather than a fancy Hoplite.

I'm looking at some cheap Linen warp, wool weft (Linsey-woolsy) fabric in a 2/1 twill weave. 277grams per meter. I say comparatively cheap anyway... at $30 Aud per metre from a Czech guy who makes the fabric himself!

In Rome, this would be more of a funerary colour, hence my asking. I don't want to give the impression that I'm going to a funeral!


RE: Draping the chiton - Titus Vettidius Cladus - 03-29-2019

So... if I got everything correctly this should be somewhat of a pattern:
 [Image: Whats-App-Image-2019-03-29-at-16-51-33.jpg]
(Just click on the image to have it bigger)

Depending on how I gather the material on the upper hem, the number of pleats changes, right?

Damn Archaeology of Western Greeks!! I'm a student of Archaeology with a BA degree on Late Antiquity/Early Middle Age Archaeology, but lately since I'm studying for the MA degree I'm getting more and more involved (and fond of) Greek Archaeology and want to try something different. Rolleyes Big Grin


RE: Draping the chiton - etrusker86 - 03-29-2019

@Titus: Yeah you got it :Smilehe pleats are a thing for themself. You have to try a lot. I think some people sew them to have permanent ones, but I am not an expert on that.

@Jack: Dark blue shouldn't be a problem. I think black had the same meaning in ancient greece.