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+--- Thread: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea (/showthread.php?tid=16100)
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Crispvs - 01-23-2012
True, but the words "In His anguish He prayed even more earnestly, and His sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood" do not state that it is blood which is falling, no matter what the medical possibilities. The mention of blood is a simile, not a literal statement and seems to refer to the size and weight of the drops rather than their substance.
Crispvs
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-23-2012
Yes, but Luke was a physician and would be most interested in this phenomenon. He is very precise in other accounts about medical conditions. Either way I agree it shows the emotional state he was in.
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Crispvs - 01-23-2012
Well, we don't actually know for sure that Luke was a physician. He certainly shows some medical knowledge in both his gospel and in Acts, which is why people have theorised that he may have been a doctor, but we will never know for sure. That, however is a distraction from what we are discussing, which is itself OT.
I agree with you about emotional states.
I notice you use the wording 'Italian Band'. Which translation are you using? I note that the Jerusalem and SRV translations both use the word 'cohort' and the NIV translation uses the more modern word 'regiment'.
Crispvs
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - caiusbeerquitius - 01-23-2012
Quote:Here is a photo I took at the Capitoline museum in Rome of a condemned man tied to a simple upright stake. Granted it is not Christ but it does display the horrific death experienced by those condemned.That is Marsyas. Ancient depictions of him were model for later representations of christ.
Marsyas on WP
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Charlie - 01-23-2012
Sorry if this is OT, in regards to whether or not Christ actually sweated blood. Many scholars over the years have argued this and in reality none of these learned men have ever been able to prove either way. My humble view is considering the circumstances and stress Christ was under...it is highly probable that He sweated blood.
My bible says in Luke 22:44 'Then His sweat became as like great drops of blood falling to the ground.'...good enough for me.
Also in Col 4:14 Paul writes "Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you."...again good enough for me.
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - M. Demetrius - 01-23-2012
I agree with you, Marcellus. I respectfully disagree, Crispvs, with your assessment that the blood was a simile. The Biblia Sacra Vulgata records Luke 22:44 as "et factus est sudor eius sicut guttae sanguinis decurrentis in terram ", which translates to be "and His sweat became as drops of blood down on the ground" It doesn't seem to suggest a non-literal reading to me.
GJC: Note that the Jewish leaders report that "HE SAID HE WAS the King of the jews". That other people reported His word does not mean necessarily that they were making it up or that He did not say it. No offense intended.
Crispvs, you're right, we don't necessarily know for sure. The Lucas mentioned by Paul could be another. It was not a unique name. But I think Luke was a doctor, based on the same Colossians verse, and Luke's methodical, orderly writing style in his Gospel and Acts.
*
As previously stated, the upright was likely already in the ground, and firmly anchored, or perhaps a tree that had been modified for crucifixion use. It's just too difficult to manage the weight of the man and the wood and secure it so it stands upright and won't fall over. We've tried several ways for the stage, and none of them makes it practical to lift a man from horizontal to vertical. Of course, we are very concerned about the safety of the crucified, while the Romans weren't. ;-)
The condemned generally carried the crossbar, or patibulum (cross-bar), which was then affixed to the stipes (the vertical pole). See here for one of the several explanations of how this was done: http://www.scionofzion.com/cross_of_christ.htm
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2019&version=VULGATE;ESV
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - PhilusEstilius - 01-23-2012
Crispvs.
I must go OT again to say that I would not lay any claim to being a good historian, for indeed anyone that might do so I should consider to be an arrogance.
Then I must also say I do have a respect for any man's politics or religion, but would say that mine is where I simply believe in the Genius of all things.
I would like also to say with great pride that when asked to go to San Cataldo in Sicilia, I was given the privilage of not only leading the whole Roman parade of not only 80 soldiers, but also taking part in the portrayal of the condemnation of Christ.
Then also two days later taking part in the crucifixion, in fact the whole week was given over to these celebrations and I found it all the most interesting experience of a life time.
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - D B Campbell - 01-23-2012
Quote:The Biblia Sacra Vulgata records Luke 22:44 as "et factus est sudor eius sicut guttae sanguinis decurrentis in terram ", which translates to be "and His sweat became as drops of blood down on the ground" It doesn't seem to suggest a non-literal reading to me.I presume that it's the ambiguity of sicut (ὡσεί in the original NT Greek), "just like" drops of blood, that has caused the controversy.
It seems to me that, if the narrator had never seen a man sweat blood before, he would probably phrase it in exactly this way. ("His sweat looks just like blood!") If Jesus had simply been sweating profusely, there are surely better similes to use (the same ones we probably use ourselves). (imho)
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-23-2012
I tend to agree with Duncan's assessment, no offence Dave.
Also, the men accusing Christ were neither supporting him or
His friends! People out to harm you tend to be neither clear
With the truth, nor ashamed of totally fabricating and twisting words to put in your mouth!
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - M. Demetrius - 01-23-2012
Truth? What is truth? :lol:
No offense taken. Sounds to me that we are all in agreement on the sweat/blood thing. It would have been red and salty.
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-23-2012
8-)
Well, I may be wrong, but I think the consensus was the sweat
Fell as like drops of blood, as in copious amounts!?
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Maximio - 01-23-2012
Quote: Plus wasn't it a a special passover since it also fell on the sabbath?
Jay, presuming the narrative of the 4 gospels is complete and without any gaps in the timeline then Pesach would have begun on the Thursday evening, the accounts describe them sitting down to the feast (Seder) at that time. The trial/crucifiction occured on the friday (therefore the first full day of the festival). Shabat would have begun at dusk that evening i.e. the beginning of the second day of the festival. Pesach (Passover) is an eight day festival which means that there will always be at least one Shabat during it. The Priests would not have dared to move to try and ultimately execute someone on the Sabbath.
However your point about heightened security at this time is valid. The conflict between the various factions in Judah at that time especially in Jerusalem would mean that the Romans would be acutely aware of the potential for trouble when killing someone they saw as a populist radical and a Galilean one to boot. I don't see any problem with the idea that a senior officer was sent out to oversee the business. Even if there wasn't likely to be a rescue attempt there was bound to be a few stones thrown between the various different supporters. You would want to have a steady hand in those circumstances.
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Crispvs - 01-24-2012
Brian,
That must have been a very special experience. I would love to have seen it. I always feel privileged to be able to be part of the play in Leicester each year.
http://citc.dioceseofleicester.com/
Thanks for the Collossians reference Marcellus. I must admit to it being quite some time since I last read it and I had forgotten.
On the matter of claiming the title of Messiah there are one or two more refences which could be taken to support the Chief Priests' claim.
John states (Ch6, 15) "Jesus, as He realised they were about to come and take Him by force and make Him king, fled to the hills alone".
As the people could not make anyone king in the sense of of being the ruler of the country, this must be referring to being king in the sense of being the Messiah, but Christ was not prepared to be controlled by the people and there would have been the possibility that people might try to turn Him into a figurehead for rebellion in the style of someone like Simon of Perea in 4BC.
It might be worth noting here that John states (Ch 4, 40-42) that when He visited the Samaritan town of Sychar the people there acknowledged Jesus as the "Saviour of the World" (an appellation not so far from that of 'Messiah'). This may have been only a short time before the event mentioned in chapter 6.
Matthew also gives us a reference to Jesus being called the Messiah and appearing to acknowledge this.
Matthew Ch 24, 4-5 states: "And Jesus answered them, 'Take care that no one deceives you, because many will come in my name and saying, "I am the Christ," and they will deceive many."
Crispvs
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - M. Demetrius - 01-24-2012
Summinf up, we come to these conclusions on the topic:
The soldiers were probably auxilia, not legionaries
There were 4 soldiers who directly crucified Jesus (since they parted his clothing into 4 parts, according to the Gospel, but his tunic was woven in one piece with no seam (I don't get it, but that's what it says) so it was not torn, but gambled for, probably with dice. We don't know about the other two, but it could have been the same 4.
There was at least one centurion present
The 4 at the top of the hill might not have been all the soldiers present (some would have accompanied Jesus, and two crucifixions were already in place when He arrived)
There would have been more soldiers for crowd control, but we don't know how many.
The "vinegar" on the sponge was probably posca
The cross was likely either the "low tau" (typically represented cross) or the "high tau" (shaped like a T)
Those to be crucified were made to carry the crossbeam, not the entire cross, probably.
What else?
Re: The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea - Charlie - 01-24-2012
Another interesting thing we might add is this:
Whilst the crowd and the chief priests continued to mock Him on the cross, the Centurion had this to say. So when the Centurion, who stood opposite to Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said "Truly this Man was the Son of God!" Mark 15:39.
Luke says 23:47...So when the Centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying "Certainly this was a righteous Man!"
This for me is a remarkable image in history I am most looking forward to paint/illustrate.
PS: Brian, What an awesome experience you must have had in San Cataldo, and Crispvs your part in the Leicester is as you say a privilege.