+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: More glue - bah (/showthread.php?tid=16299)
More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 01-11-2010
Does anyone care for another round of glue-debunking threads?
http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/l ... armor.html
Re: More glue - bah - Mythos_Ruler - 01-12-2010
No. :mrgreen:
Re: More glue - bah - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-12-2010
Perhaps the yhad "Super-Glue"? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :roll:
Re: More glue - bah - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2010
Bull's eye Dan :twisted:
Kind regards
Re: More glue - bah - Matthew Amt - 01-12-2010
Yeah, I'm afraid we can expect a few more generations of this. But wait, this is "NEW RESEARCH"----from 1980, maybe?? And should we tell them that pointed weapons go right through Kevlar? Oh, well...
Matthew
Re: More glue - bah - rocktupac - 01-12-2010
In all fairness, many of the 'facts' set forth on the Discovery News article are due to the author of the article (Rossella Lorenzi) and NOT the researchers (Greg Aldrete and Scott Bartell). The actual research itself is more balanced and looks at all methods of construction equally.
Re: More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 01-12-2010
All that was needed was to look at contemporary descriptions and surviving examples of layered cloth armour - all of which are quilted. Examples include the European padded jack, India peti, Aztec ichcahuipilli, the recent Mycenaean find at Patras, etc. Resources would be far better spent on examining the protective capability of real armour rather than wasted on unfounded speculation. The chance that glue was used in the construction of Greek linen armour is so low as to be negligible. Any research on the protective capability of glued armour tells us nothing useful about historical armour.
There is so much that could be done with quilted linen. Different types of thread; different weights of cloth; varying the number of layers; varying the type of quilting; is there a difference in the strength of bleached vs unbleached cloth; etc.
Re: More glue - bah - MeinPanzer - 01-13-2010
Quote:In all fairness, many of the 'facts' set forth on the Discovery News article are due to the author of the article (Rossella Lorenzi) and NOT the researchers (Greg Aldrete and Scott Bartell). The actual research itself is more balanced and looks at all methods of construction equally.
Scott, if I'm not mistaken, this is the second AIA conference at which you've presented your research on the linothorax. Are you planning on publishing it? (Or have you already?)
Re: More glue - bah - Matthew Amt - 01-13-2010
Quote:In all fairness, many of the 'facts' set forth on the Discovery News article are due to the author of the article (Rossella Lorenzi) and NOT the researchers (Greg Aldrete and Scott Bartell). The actual research itself is more balanced and looks at all methods of construction equally.
Mea culpa, I should have kept that in mind, having seen the same sort of thing happen many times in the past! I hope I get a chance to see some of your work.
Matthew
Re: More glue - bah - rocktupac - 01-13-2010
Quote:rocktupac:1g4zigjo Wrote:In all fairness, many of the 'facts' set forth on the Discovery News article are due to the author of the article (Rossella Lorenzi) and NOT the researchers (Greg Aldrete and Scott Bartell). The actual research itself is more balanced and looks at all methods of construction equally.
Scott, if I'm not mistaken, this is the second AIA conference at which you've presented your research on the linothorax. Are you planning on publishing it? (Or have you already?)
Yes, this is the second conference the research was presented at. We are definitely planning on publishing it in book form (already talked to some publishers and they seem interested!). Hopefully, everyone will get a chance to read our work (and hopefully soon).
Re: More glue - bah - rocktupac - 01-13-2010
Quote:All that was needed was to look at contemporary descriptions and surviving examples of layered cloth armour - all of which are quilted. Examples include the European padded jack, India peti, Aztec ichcahuipilli, the recent Mycenaean find at Patras, etc. Resources would be far better spent on examining the protective capability of real armour rather than wasted on unfounded speculation. The chance that glue was used in the construction of Greek linen armour is so low as to be negligible. Any research on the protective capability of glued armour tells us nothing useful about historical armour.
There is so much that could be done with quilted linen. Different types of thread; different weights of cloth; varying the number of layers; varying the type of quilting; is there a difference in the strength of bleached vs unbleached cloth; etc.
To quote from Cawkwell's "Orthodoxy and Hoplites" discussing the firm stance many take on the 'orthodox' way of hoplite battle (p.385):
"Against such fixity of belief, one can make little progress..."
Re: More glue - bah - PMBardunias - 01-13-2010
Quote:"Against such fixity of belief, one can make little progress..."
The fact that Cawkwell was wrong weakens your arguement- but that is for another thread. :wink:
Why are you publishing it as a book? Have you had rejections from journals? I ask because I need to find a venue for some experimental work of mine.
Re: More glue - bah - rocktupac - 01-13-2010
Quote:Quote:"Against such fixity of belief, one can make little progress..."
The fact that Cawkwell was wrong weakens your arguement- but that is for another thread. :wink:
Is it fact that he is wrong?
wink: Quote:Why are you publishing it as a book? Have you had rejections from journals? I ask because I need to find a venue for some experimental work of mine.
We have not had it rejected. Originally, we had intended it to be an article, but as the length grew and grew we soon realized it would be better suited in book form (there, images would be more welcomed as well).
Re: More glue - bah - Dan Howard - 01-13-2010
Quote:To quote from Cawkwell's "Orthodoxy and Hoplites" discussing the firm stance many take on the 'orthodox' way of hoplite battle (p.385):
"Against such fixity of belief, one can make little progress..."
When some evidence is found to support glued linen armour then it could be seriously studied. Until then it takes away resources from the study of real armour. It is no better than all those boofheads shooting arrows at butted mail and pretending that it has any relevance to the riveted mail worn in battle. If resources weren't squandered on the glued part of the tests then so much more could have been discovered about quilted textile defenses.
I'm just frustrated at the wasted opportunity. Dr. Aldrete grew, harvested, processed, spun and wove his own flax fibers into linen. Then he goes and buggers it up with glue. That effort could have been better invested in further exploring the possiblities of quilting.
Re: More glue - bah - rocktupac - 01-14-2010
Quote:rocktupac:3283aat7 Wrote:To quote from Cawkwell's "Orthodoxy and Hoplites" discussing the firm stance many take on the 'orthodox' way of hoplite battle (p.385):
"Against such fixity of belief, one can make little progress..."
When some evidence is found to support glued linen armour then it could be seriously studied. Until then it takes away resources from the study of real armour. It is no better than all those boofheads shooting arrows at butted mail and pretending that it has any relevance to the riveted mail worn in battle. If resources weren't squandered on the glued part of the tests then so much more could have been discovered about quilted textile defenses.
I'm just frustrated at the wasted opportunity. Dr. Aldrete grew, harvested, processed, spun and wove his own flax fibers into linen. Then he goes and buggers it up with glue. That effort could have been better invested in further exploring the possiblities of quilting.
Dan, when you show me some evidence that the Greeks or Macedonians wore quilted armor then everyone can stop exploring the possibility of laminated linen armor. Simply listing what other cultures wore for protection, and applying that to the Greeks etc., does not count. As far as I'm concerned doing this (i.e. exploring one possibility) does nothing to take away from the study of other types of armor. I'm sure there are plenty that are looking into quilted armor. Nothing in this entire process has been squandered, except for maybe arguing with your negativity and neophobia.
If you're so "frustrated at the wasted opportunity," then you should by all means put together a rival project scientifically testing quilted armor, finding artistic representations of quilted armor in vase paintings, sculptural reliefs, frescoes etc, and all literary mentions from primary sources of quilted armor worn by ancient Mediterranean peoples. Until then, saying this type of research "takes away from the study of real armour," that it squanders resources and it is a "wasted opportunity," stifles the creative and imaginative mind and does nothing positive for the advancement of anything -- including quilted armor.
There is certainly evidence of laminating in the ancient world. We are exploring one possible explanation of the makeup of the linen thorax, linothorax, tube-and-yoke, Type IV etc. -- whatever you want to call it. I understand your point of view and your opinions on the matter are clearly stated. Never once does our research deny the existence of quilted armor and in fact considers it a possibility (as we do with leather). And I'm not sure where you got that "Dr. Aldrete grew, harvested, processed, spun and wove his own flax fibers into linen" when this is never hinted at.