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Colour for Leather Boots - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-05-2010
Hello folks. Is there any evidence of the army wearing coloured leather on their feet?
I have a pair of Fell boots that are dying for a little colour....no pun intended, they look pretty cool as is, but they will probably turn brown
anyway if I treat them with Neatsfoot oil. I was thinking they would probably look ok if given another colour.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Graham Sumner - 02-05-2010
With your credentials my lord Caesar you are entitled to red purple boots!
Graham.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 02-05-2010
But seriously, red was reserved for senatorial rank apparently...
So black would be ok, brown, darkish brown, et cetera...
M.VIB.M.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Graham Sumner - 02-06-2010
Quote:red was reserved for senatorial rank apparently...
Yes Henk you are wise to tread carefully because like the purple dye there was red and then there was...... red! Expensive red dye such as that used for Senator's boots would be beyond the average legionary but like the purple clothing there would probably be alternatives at a range of prices.
Some painted Roman sculpture or pottery shows sandals coloured in red or red brown even for soldiers, while others are blue black. Moroccan red leather is also mentioned and there are some examples of shoes surviving that were dyed purple but sadly there is not a great deal of surviving physical evidence.
Graham.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-06-2010
I was thinking a dark Green or Blue.
But a dark red might be feasable?
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Dan Howard - 02-06-2010
Quote:Expensive red dye such as that used for Senator's boots would be beyond the average legionary but like the purple clothing there would probably be alternatives at a range of prices.
Just curious about why red dye was expensive for the Romans. In Europe, red was one of the cheapest dyes from the Bronze Age until the 19th century. It was supposed to be the main reason why the British army had red coats. It was made from the root of the madder plant. Both Dioscorides and Pliny the Elder mention the plant so we know the Romans used it too. Perhaps it is only suitable for textiles and not leather. Do we know what they used as a red dye for leather?
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Graham Sumner - 02-07-2010
Hi Dan
An interesting point.
In my post I did suggest there would be red dye and then there would be ....red dye. J.W Waterer in the leather section in the book 'Roman Crafts', states that 'natural dye stuffs vegetable or animal including purple from the murex' would be used.
Based on textiles that could mean red dye from madder which was widely used in Roman times would be cheaper than red dye from the Kermes which Pliny the Elder states was used for officers paludamentum.
The same was also true in the British Army. The ordinary rank and file had brick red coats while the officers had scarlet jackets. There were also many cheaper alternatives to true purple.
So yes, nice red boots to go with your nice red tunic Byron! :wink: :wink:
Graham.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - A_Volpe - 02-07-2010
Dan
I tend to think of it now as less about how much the dye costs, as the value given to the color in terms of status and rank in society.
If there is some 'privilege' of a specific color (let's just use 'Purple' for example), that only certain special people in society get to wear because they say so and their special and whatever, then eventually that color gets associated with that rank and earns it's own special status.
I guess another analogy is with royalty, the supposed use of Mink fur as a status indicator. Any regular schmoe could go out into the wilderness and trap/kill a Minx, and add the fur to their clothing - yet - there are rules and laws that say that only the nobility are "allowed" to have the fur....But, it's animal fur...What makes it so special?
I think there is a bit of that saying "The Clothes Makes the Man" that is seated well in Roman society...Heck, even the different style of boot being worn indicates who you are and what status you are. Not much has changed. Most of the populace wears sneakers, but [Politicians] wear loafers with their business suits, because wearing sneakers with a business suit is "wrong" . But, shoes are shoes, right? Sneakers cover your feet. Loafers cover your feet. So what's the difference? What makes loafers more special over sneakers when worn with a business suit.
We as humans in a society eventually place value and status on "things" to help determine a conceived notion of status and rank in society.
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Dan Howard - 02-07-2010
Quote:Dan
I tend to think of it now as less about how much the dye costs, as the value given to the color in terms of status and rank in society.
If there is some 'privilege' of a specific color (let's just use 'Purple' for example), that only certain special people in society get to wear because they say so and their special and whatever, then eventually that color gets associated with that rank and earns it's own special status.
Purple dye was expensive so only the most wealthy could afford it. As some members of the lower classes became more wealthy they could afford expensive dyes so Sumptuary laws were introduced to keep the upstarts in their place. It doesn't mean that purple dye was ever cheap. Well it does today. Stupid modern technology :x
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-07-2010
Quote:Hi Dan
An interesting point.
In my post I did suggest there would be red dye and then there would be ....red dye. J.W Waterer in the leather section in the book 'Roman Crafts', states that 'natural dye stuffs vegetable or animal including purple from the murex' would be used.
Based on textiles that could mean red dye from madder which was widely used in Roman times would be cheaper than red dye from the Kermes which Pliny the Elder states was used for officers paludamentum.
The same was also true in the British Army. The ordinary rank and file had brick red coats while the officers had scarlet jackets. There were also many cheaper alternatives to true purple.
So yes, nice red boots to go with your nice red tunic Byron! :wink: :wink:
Graham.
Thanks Graham
Actually, I often wear blue tunics......and occassionally white withblue clavi, so I was wondering on the alternatives too.
I know purple was expensive due to the fact it was obtained from a species of shellfish, which as obtained from around Crete, IIRC,
but what were the cheaper alternatives?
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - sulla felix - 02-07-2010
A real soldier's boots are coloured by the blood of his enemies as he grinds them into the dirt.....but blue would go nice with your tunic 8)
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-07-2010
Yeah, but then again, green seems a good choice too.
The blood colors every thing, regardsless.... :wink:
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - sulla felix - 02-07-2010
:lol:
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Cheyenne - 02-07-2010
Quote:I know purple was expensive due to the fact it was obtained from a species of shellfish, which as obtained from around Crete, IIRC,
but what were the cheaper alternatives?
I have just had a scout through my NESAT III from the York Symposium: 1987 (P.Walton & J.P Wilde)
The article is Taylor, G.W (1987) Reds and Purples: From the Classical World to Pre-Conquest Britain
It seems that purples may well have been more widely used than we give late prehistoric/early conquest peoples credit for. Taylor mentions that Cochineal from the Armenian Cochineal Beetle (Porphyrophora Hameli) was used before the South American Cochineal beetle was brought to Europe in the 16th Century. Kermes of course was available to those who could afford it, but madder was widely used as we all know.
Why am I saying this? you may ask - well, Taylor has mentioned that apart from the relatively expensive Kermes & Tyrian Purple (shellfish), a relatively inexpensive lichen purple and indigotin was used as the blue component of a red/blue mixture (with Madder). Tyrian purple was NOT exportable as apparently, the dyeing was only undertaken near to where the shellfish lived (Eastern Med.) and they have to be alive when the component chemical was extracted. It is however possible that purple was available in Britain from a local shellfish (Purpura Lapillus) which excretes the same chemical compound dye. There is certainly evidence for purple dyeing in Ireland during the 6th Century and Bede mentions the existence of an industry in Co Mayo at that time. Archaeological evidence also suggests that this may have been the case with the existence of an early medieval shell midden at the location. To date however, no cloth from Britain has been found which, when analysed, contained any shellfish purple...
Dyeing of the Vindolanda textiles is broken down as follows:
100 fragments alluding from 50 different items (or garments)
Evidence for dyeing was found on 9 textiles
8 of which where madder, or a madder relative
1 was analysed to contain traces of lichen purple (which would have had a more blueish tint) and madder - which could give us the evidence we need to suggest that purple was used in Britain for garment dyeing
In terms of making this a fiesable possibility that your nice boots could be coloured, I would say yes! - Shading may have come from a native concoction of dye which was made up from a number of different components rather than one very expensive dye... its overall tone may well have been more muted - but still bright.
I hope this helps
Claire
Re: Colour for Leather Boots - Tim Edwards - 02-08-2010
Dan wrote:
Do we know what they used as a red dye for leather?
Pliny wrote:
There are two other plants also, which are but little known to any but the herd of the sordid and avaricious, and this because of the large profits that are derived from them. The first of these is madder, the employment of which is necessary in dyeing wool and leather...
Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Book 19, Chap.17
Curiously, many modern attempts to dye leather with madder have failed miserably.
I wonder what we're missing? I think might try this myself! I have some left over from when I dyed my scarf. (which consequently leached out onto my linen subarmilis when I was scaling a mountain and sweating heavily!!)