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Soldered rivets - Latinitas - 07-19-2010
Salvete commilitones
I know there are two ways to fix the mounts to the belt. The first way is the rivet like a nail, the second is a rivet that is soldered or casted directly to the back. In the latter case the rivets are (almost) invisible from the front. It`s sure they made four holes in every corner first. Then they put a cylinder formed rivet through the holes and soldered it. When you use exactly this way, the diameter of the rivet on the front has to be the same as the diameter of the rivet on the back. I have a real original mount here and can see that the diameter of the rivet on the front of this original plate is much more than the diameter on the back of it. My conclusion is that the didn`t exactly use my first mentioned way, but another one. One that is more complex and hopefully gives a stronger fixing. My question is: does anybody have a good theory how they soldered rivets to the mounts?
Re: Soldered rivets - Peroni - 07-20-2010
It's probably countersunk.
![[Image: countersunk.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/countersunk.jpg)
It may also be that the original master was made this way and the subsequent castings from the mould made from the master still show the slight irregularities of where the master was soldered together in this way. If you look at our Velsen plates it is possible to see exactly this.
Re: Soldered rivets - M. Demetrius - 07-21-2010
That makes a lot of sense, because to get the metal hot enough to solder, you'd greatly exceed the temperature resistance of the leather.
Re: Soldered rivets - Latinitas - 07-21-2010
Thanks, that`s a clear drawing. I`ve taken a look at your Velsen plates and can see the irregularities you intended . Are the rivets soldered to the plates or has they been casted? It`s pretty hard to cast a 1mm thick plate. If they are casted, how did you do that?
Re: Soldered rivets - Peroni - 07-22-2010
Yes they are a one-piece casting. The plates are 1.5mm thick
Re: Soldered rivets - PhilusEstilius - 07-22-2010
I do have a beltplate in my collection that has integral cast studs on the underside, I don't at this time have a good picture of the rear surface but will provide one soon. The interesting feature of this plate is that on the rear at the centre area it has what has been a square casting sprue, which would indicate that this type of plate with decorative front surface was cast in a double mold.
The decorative feature would be in the under half of the mold and the upper would carry the sprue it also would have had only threee holes in the upper part of the mold that would force the molten metal upwards to form the three studs.
http://www.listuo.com/sextima/bpl103.jpg
Re: Soldered rivets - mcbishop - 07-22-2010
Quote:I do have a beltplate in my collection that has integral cast studs on the underside, I don't at this time have a good picture of the rear surface but will provide one soon. The interesting feature of this plate is that on the rear at the centre area it has what has been a square casting sprue, which would indicate that this type of plate with decorative front surface was cast in a double mold.
The decorative feature would be in the under half of the mold and the upper would carry the sprue it also would have had only threee holes in the upper part of the mold that would force the molten metal upwards to form the three studs.
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... bpl103.jpg
These are strange little devils, as you only ever find buckle plates, never straightforward belt-plates. They are also exclusively British, early 2nd century (when they can be dated), and enamel-inlaid (although resembling the earlier niello-inlaid designs). The example from Corbridge also has the square sprue stub on the underside.
Mike Bishop
Re: Soldered rivets - PhilusEstilius - 07-22-2010
Mike.
That does appear to be very true about buckle plates and with this plate in particular, for there is the one that I have and an exact one found at Caerleon with indeed yet another found at Staxton in north Yorkshire.
There are traces of inlay showing in the one I have which are red and a very strange greenish almost Turquoise shade ( wish I could find out the ingredients of this strange colour )
These are very narrow plates of 20mm width and about 58mm length therefore one can understand why they only have three studs at the rear, two near the buckle end for strength and one at the other which makes one wonder that if there are other plates do these only have two studs one each end??
Re: Soldered rivets - PhilusEstilius - 07-22-2010
This is another plate with buckle that I had which is now in the British Museum, I decided it should be there as it is the first of its type to be found in Britain.
This one also had integral cast studs at the rear however the plate of this one is only in the region of 1mm thick, the decoration of this one is created with punctim, I suspect the punctim was created on the master copy before casting for to punch this plate afterwards may well of have damaged it.
What is of great interest with this one is that in Roman times it became damaged where the hinge pin of the buckle had broken, and it may well have been repaired by the soldier himself with a piece of copper wire that after almost 2,000 years allowed the buckle to still move as the wire was of smaller diameter than the original iron hinge pin.
listuo.com/sextima/bplt037.jpg
Re: Soldered rivets - Peroni - 07-23-2010
Quote:These are strange little devils, as you only ever find buckle plates, never straightforward belt-plates.
The Roman Army Museum at Caerleon has four or five of these in their display cabinet as you state Mike - all buckle plates! (Three with buckles attached - also enamelled) Maybe there were no matching plates? Fashion is a strange thing!
Re: Soldered rivets - PhilusEstilius - 07-23-2010
Adrian.
I know we are going a little bit off topic but it is an interesting situation we have here, for the others I have mentioned are all yet again the same situation only buckle types and how interesting the Caerleon, Staxton, and mine are all the same types as if they all came out of the same mold.
This does make one wonder if indeed there were belts without plates, however having said that might there yet be a couple of frog plates around of this type that helped to carry a dagger maybe ??
Re: Soldered rivets - Latinitas - 07-25-2010
Quote:Yes they are a one-piece casting. The plates are 1.5mm thick
That`s great to hear. Casting plates is much more easy to do than hammering them. For the other discussion: could anybody explain what "a sprue" is? I`ve searched in my dictionary (English -> Dutch), but I can`t find it.
Re: Soldered rivets - M. Demetrius - 07-25-2010
If several objects are cast at the same time, there has to be a way to send the molten metal through "channels" in the plaster, so that the various ones can be cast. When the metal flows through these channels and fills the empty space, making the objects, like plates, and solidifies, the metal that filled the channel is called a sprue.
That's overly simplified, of course, but that's the general meaning of the word. Not common usage, so that's probably why it's not in your translator dictionary. So there ya go.
Re: Soldered rivets - Peroni - 07-26-2010
Think of a plastic model aeroplane kit. The parts have to be cut from the 'sprue' before assembly. It is as David stated, a way of channeling molten material to a multi-part casting or moulding.
Re: Soldered rivets - PhilusEstilius - 07-26-2010
The explanation of a sprue in the multi-part type of casting is as both David and Adrian have said , however the kind of sprue I was refering to is very much the same but in the case of the beltplate I have shown it was a single system.
It is basicaly a pouring sprue for molten metal however the one I mention on the rear of the plate I've shown, was a single type that was provided in a simple two piece mold. There is a small square area in the middle of the plate at the rear where a tapered hole would have been made in the upper portion of the mold to pour the molten metal in. Also this part of the mold with the sprue pourer that would have had small holes made in it also where the force of the hot metal going in would have pushed hot metal upward to form the integral pins or studs at the rea of the plate.
Then when cooled the square sprue would have been cut off and the rear of the plate then cleaned up, but in this case as with many others a trace of the sprue is still there ( indeed there are even at times what is called flashing on artifacts where the join of a mold can leave sharp edges at the mold joins some times cleaned off other times not all depends on how fast Fabrica were working. )