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Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Jona Lendering - 10-03-2010
Apparently, scholars have discovered the principles with which Ptolemy constructed his map of Germania; some results are presented here. I'm willing to believe it, yet I am a bit skeptical. Anyone any thoughts?
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - authun - 10-04-2010
This article, in german, has a good map of the locations: http://www.portal-schwedt.de/stadtportr ... ncorum.pdf
The concept of roman troops in the region for trade purposes is interesting. We know that there was trade and the discovery of the battlefield at Kalefeld 18 months ago showed, surprisingly, that roman troops too were in the region.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 20,00.html
No such battle appears in roman sources of course but traders with an armed escort being robbed may be an explanation.
best
authun
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Matthew Amt - 10-04-2010
I realize it's a typical hyped-up popular-press article, but it's leaving me puzzled. It keeps talking about Ptolemy calculating "coordinates" or even longitude and latitude?? It looks to me like he marked sites on a map, and I'm befuddled as to why it should take 6 years to line those up with modern locations. Plus little things like "dried animal skin"--geez, guys, it's parchment or vellum, hellloooooo....
Neat map, dumb article!
Matthew
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - authun - 10-04-2010
Quote:I realize it's a typical hyped-up popular-press article, but it's leaving me puzzled. It keeps talking about Ptolemy calculating "coordinates" or even longitude and latitude?? It looks to me like he marked sites on a map, and I'm befuddled as to why it should take 6 years to line those up with modern locations.
The idea of longitude and latitude was proposed by Erathosthenes and first used, so far as we know by Hipparchus but their idea of the world was very different. Ptolemy's use of longitude and latitude is much more like the modern usage but he still lacked an accurate view of the world and they are inaccurate. Nonetheless, it was possible to recreate maps based on known locations and his naming of rivers, eg. the mouth of the Albis: 31*00, 56*15 whereas in reality it is latitude 53° 53' N longitude 8° 38' E. Other locations are calculated from fixed points by distance, usually given by Ptolemy in stadia
The maps produced were all rather like this one: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/G ... mited.html
The names given for the towns are not easily reconciled with known locations given the uncertainty. What the new research claims to do is, by understanding Ptolemy's world view and how he calculated longitude and latitude, apply his method to a modern world view. In this way, they claim that these otherwise unknown places, such as Tulifurdum for example, are located in modern cities, Hanover in this example.
best
authun
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Matthew Amt - 10-04-2010
Ah, now I'm following, thanks! Wild, had no idea that longitude and latitude went back that far.
As an aside about Ptolemy's map of Britain, with Scotland pointing off to the right, I've seen a similar thing on an early map of the New World. Seems someone stuck different sheets of a sketched map together the wrong way, and had the coastline making a sudden 90 degree turn. So I'm wondering if we might be seeing the same thing with Scotland. It IS curious that the bend occurs right at Hadrian's Wall, though!
Valete!
Matthew
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Jona Lendering - 10-04-2010
Quote:It keeps talking about Ptolemy calculating "coordinates" or even longitude and latitude?I think I can understand what's behind it. At least, I think I can make an educated guess. We know that Ptolemy used the distances recorded by surveyors ("the bematists") to establish the coordinates of sites in the eastern parts of the known world. For instance, if Alexander's bematists said "it's so and so many stades to the city of X", he converted this to a coordinate. Our German author may have assumed Ptolemy did something similar for distances recorded by German officers.
Roman troops did indeed reach the Baltic Sea and found amber (Pliny, NH 37.45). They may have kept a diary ("that day, we covered so many miles"; compare Xenophon's parasangs).
I have in the meantime ordered the book.
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - MD - 10-05-2010
The project was already shown in several German popular science /archeology magazines 4 years ago. It includes all parts Ptolemy's atlas, so I guess the results for other countries will be published separately. They have a small example with the British islands on their homepage, but you can't read anything on it.
http://www.pressestelle.tu-berlin.de/ne ... weltkarte/
http://www.igg.tu-berlin.de/index.php?id=1488&L=1
http://www.igg.tu-berlin.de/index.php?id=1381&L=1
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Vincula - 10-12-2010
I found this: http://antoninuspius.blogspot.com/ is quite intresting.
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 10-12-2010
He should have stayed in Alexandria.
M.VIB.M.
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - D B Campbell - 10-12-2010
Quote:He should have stayed in Alexandria.He probably did. Pity he hadn't got out more. :wink:
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Jona Lendering - 10-12-2010
Quote:I found this: http://antoninuspius.blogspot.com/One of the more interesting blogs, BTW.
Quote:Yes and no. Ptolemy is no Pliny the Elder or Polybius, who traveled a lot and knew what they were talking about, but at the same time: scholars like Strabo and Ptolemy could summarize so much information precisely because they did not travel.MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS:39dj737v Wrote:He should have stayed in Alexandria.He probably did. Pity he hadn't got out more. :wink:
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 10-12-2010
Thats indeed an interesting theory !
So you think because they did not travel they had all the time to interview traders, merchants and other folk from outside of the realm ?
Intrigueing please explain !
M.VIB.M.
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Jona Lendering - 10-13-2010
Quote:So you think because they did not travel they had all the time to interview traders, merchants and other folk from outside of the realm ?Consulting the libraries, I meant. Compare Livy, who used older sources, adding only occasionaly things he had seen himself (e.g., that the tomb of Scipio Africanus was in Livy's days a ruin). If Livy had decided to visit Sentinum, Cannae, and Syracuse, and had decided to investigate the Alps (as Polybius did), he would never have finished his works. Ptolemy had access to a good library and appears to have done the same. Only his astronomical observations are his own, although I remember that this has been challenged too. I imagine he was the leader of a team of experts.
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Demian - 10-15-2010
Quote:MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS:3lz3g36d Wrote:So you think because they did not travel they had all the time to interview traders, merchants and other folk from outside of the realm ?Consulting the libraries, I meant. Compare Livy, who used older sources, adding only occasionaly things he had seen himself (e.g., that the tomb of Scipio Africanus was in Livy's days a ruin). If Livy had decided to visit Sentinum, Cannae, and Syracuse, and had decided to investigate the Alps (as Polybius did), he would never have finished his works...
Livy did use older sources, mainly Polybius, but his descriptions are full of flaws (Polybius on the other hand, did a very good job). He did read the older sources, but he did not understand them. (especially military terminology). That's why every ancient historian has to doubt Livy
Re: Ptolemy\'s map of Germania - Jona Lendering - 10-17-2010
Quote:Livy did use older sources, mainly Polybius, but his descriptions are full of flaws (Polybius on the other hand, did a very good job). He did read the older sources, but he did not understand them. (especially military terminology). That's why every ancient historian has to doubt LivyHe's indeed often mistaken, but we can be too critical. For instance, his chronology of the Republic is more or less accurate (sack of Rome in 386 BCE, expulsion of the kings in c.506), and I am always surprised to see the consuls he mentions for a year "explained" with a reference to the Varronian chronology. It is poor scholarship to explain what is acceptable by comparing it to something that is demonstrably wrong.