RomanArmyTalk
Late Roman crests - Printable Version

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Late Roman crests - Caballo - 10-24-2010

Been thinking (always a dangerous thing) and I think there may be circumstantial proof for wider crests than the intercisa fins. Look at this chi rho helmet crest front. That rivet attachment would not be for a thin fin but a wider wooden or metal crest.
[Image: Chi-rho%20helmet%20crest%202.jpg]

I'm not arguing though that chi rhos were not also attached to Intercisa fins - look at the top left Chi rho attachment in the drawing below. Heres what that would look like.
[Image: christogram_chi-rho.jpg]

So- my theory is that these chirhos can be used to get the right width and height of a late Roman crest holder and were attached by riveting to a wider crest holder in materials that have now perished (i.e. wood or iron).
[Image: Chi-rho%20helmet%20crest%203.jpg]

[Image: christograms%20-%20examples.jpg]

Perhaps looking something like this, with the crest simpler, squarer but the same dimensions as the chi rho?
[Image: intercisa-4_chi-rho.JPG]

Or this Constantine coin?
[Image: enhanced-roman-coin.jpg]

The crest holder/ box could be of wood or metal- who knows. But if we follow these dimensions we may not go far wrong- what do you think?

Re: Late Roman crests - markusaurelius - 10-24-2010

I think the partial crest piece that you have in your photo with its rivet actually supports what this complete example has. This complete example has the original attaching pieces, and as you can tell the rivet actually hold the piece of bronze to the back which then attaches to the thin "fin" of the helmet.

Re: Late Roman crests - Caballo - 10-24-2010

Markus
Thanks- thats a really interesting piece (and you make a very convincing argument). Where is it from, and what are the dimensions?
Cheers

Paul

Re: Late Roman crests - markusaurelius - 10-25-2010

Here's the full write up on it. Likely from the Balkans

[url:29wb3tqu]http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Helmet%20Fragments%20&%20Shield%20Items/Complete%204th%20Century%20Helmet%20Crest/4th%20century%20helmet%20crest.htm[/url]

Re: Late Roman crests - Caballo - 10-25-2010

Thanks. Thinking of trying to recreate it- was the chirho cast on? My original thought was to cut out the shape and the to solder on the chirho and surround, but now I'm not sure...

Re: Late Roman crests - Robert Vermaat - 10-25-2010

Very nice new stuff guys. The next helmet from Adrian already sports this item I think.
These crest attachments were already known for some time, earlier misrepresented as 'badges', but at least since the article about the Héteny helmet they've been recognised as add-ons for late Roman helmet crests.

I'm not sure though whether the entire lenght of the piece represents also the height of the crest.

Re: Late Roman crests - markusaurelius - 10-25-2010

Quote:I'm not sure though whether the entire lenght of the piece represents also the height of the crest.

Good point. It was likely bent at the end at some time to attach to the ridge. But over all it likely was not much shorter, maybe by 15mm or so?

Re: Late Roman crests - Peroni - 10-25-2010

This would seem to demonstrate that they could be the entire height of the crest vane.. This picture is a composite of two finds..The long section with Chi-Rho and the tapering top section added from another photo where it was missing..
[Image: crest.jpg]

Re: Late Roman crests - Crispvs - 11-07-2010

It looks as if the long section has been pinched in to hug the crest vane as an aid to attachment.

Crispvs

Re: Late Roman crests - Gaius Julius Caesar - 11-08-2010

I would think the crest might actually follow the contour of the chi-rho vane, as opposed to being a square block, Paul.
My guess anyway, looking at it.

Re: Late Roman crests - Caballo - 11-08-2010

Yes, possibly flaring towards the top- perhaps for a crest box?

Re: Late Roman crests - Gaius Julius Caesar - 11-08-2010

Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Re: Late Roman crests - Robert Vermaat - 11-08-2010

Sounds plausible to me as well.