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+--- Thread: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction (/showthread.php?tid=17862)
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Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Merlkir - 11-17-2010
I've seen this sarcophagus relief a couple of times and every time it made me wonder about how the hell it might've worked. From my (certainly limited) real life experience with armour, it didn't seem plausible to me that this would be a metal armour or that it would be all in one piece. Even though there seem to be no seams carved, I made the arm guards separate. I don't believe they are sleeves, they look flat and the way it's carved doesn't look like sleeves. Also it seems very stiff and unusable if they were sleeves.
I also made the neck guard lower, and while it's most likely wrong (the proportions in the image seem fairly realistic), it just looked more right to me.
(silly, I know)I made it leather, but I guess it could be covered in scales. I just didn't see any hint of scales in the relief.
I wonder if the akinakes strapped to the leg is wrong (am I seeing things? Is it actually hanging from a belt? I don't have a good picture of the relief, sadly), from what I know, it's a saka thing to wear it like that, right?
Anyways, it's not supposed to be a precise reconstruction, more like an artistic re-imagination. I painted it today very quickly, because a friend of mine is making a mod for Mount and Blade and he had no reconstruction paintings or drawings of this.
I'll be really happy to read whatever you awesome RAT guys think of it.
![[Image: PersianCavalryArmor.jpg]](http://synnaskole.sweb.cz/PersianCavalryArmor.jpg)
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - M. Demetrius - 11-17-2010
The arm guard/neck guard could be made in one piece from either metal or leather, but if metal, there would have to be hinges of some kind so that the arms could be raised. Leather might be more flexible, but would still need some kind of modification to facilitate arm movement. Layers and layers of cloth might be more flexible, but it's hard to say how the arm/body parts would have been connected. Your tie system is as plausible and simple as any, I'd think.
Having said that, I acknowledge that I'm no armor expert. Others here on the Forum probably are more informed, and a few have made reproductions from the East.
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Giannis K. Hoplite - 11-17-2010
Nice work! I hadn't thought of this interpretation and it is plausible i think. But i tend to believe it is cuilted linen. We don't see any stitching implication,but it has the same redish colour that other persian cuirasses have in the Alexander mosaic,for instance. It could also explain the sleeves,since medieval padded jackets could have workable sleeves and still they maintained some stiffness. I just can't ecplain why there is no carved line on the back of the "sleeves" to indicate a separate piece!
Also,the akinakes should hung from the belt that is visible in his waist. What you interpreted as laces around his thigh is his tunic hunging under the armour.
Nice painting!
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Merlkir - 11-17-2010
Quote:Nice work! I hadn't thought of this interpretation and it is plausible i think. But i tend to believe it is cuilted linen. We don't see any stitching implication,but it has the same redish colour that other persian cuirasses have in the Alexander mosaic,for instance. It could also explain the sleeves,since medieval padded jackets could have workable sleeves and still they maintained some stiffness. I just can't ecplain why there is no carved line on the back of the "sleeves" to indicate a separate piece!
Also,the akinakes should hung from the belt that is visible in his waist. What you interpreted as laces around his thigh is his tunic hunging under the armour.
Nice painting!
Khaire
Giannis
Thanks for the reply!
1) I considered quilted linen and it's quite plausible, yes. I will probably do that variant as well. What goes against it is indeed the lack of any visible quilting. Could it be like a thick felt coat? (I don't know how worthy of a noble warrior this would be, but I've done a drawing of a ptolemaic cataphract wearing felt armour before)
About the sleeves - yes, sleeves of a quilted linen coat would be possible. I'm not sure I'm convinced though, because the arm guard is very rectangular and very sharply carved, with a sharp edge! It's obvious the artist used softer rounder edges where he suggests round arm in a cloth tunic, I wonder if it's really a sleeve.
It could be also a thick cloth plate - perharps worn similarly to a byzantine kavadion's sleeves?
(horse archer to the right)
[url:1mctq3m3]http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/SergejKorolev/Osprey%20Publishing/Byzantine%20Cavalryman/Training.jpg[/url]
2) About the akinakes - I started painting it hanging from the belt. But! There is no attachement visible connecting the scabbard and the belt, the akinakes I've seen in other carvings have such funny ornamental buckles for that. I thought it was lacing of a tunic too, but when I looked closely, there are 4 visible lines, which would make two laces at the bottom of the tunic. Is this common? Te me it immediately looked like a leg strap.
![[Image: sarcophagusanakkaleArchaeologyMuseumearly4thC.jpg]](http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc247/rez-twc/sarcophagusanakkaleArchaeologyMuseumearly4thC.jpg)
What sold me on the strapped akinakes theory was this - in all other depictions of akinakes, the sword is hanging down, obviously attached by the buckle to the belt. Here it's angled quite a lot, in a direct line with the leg.
![[Image: akinakes1.gif]](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/akinakes1.gif)
![[Image: Acinacifer.jpg]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Acinacifer.jpg)
![[Image: sword.jpg]](http://www.livius.org/a/1/iran/sword.jpg)
Although this saka reconstruction makes me think that there may be such a simple strap (which would angle it quite a lot), but the detail is worn off and no longer clearly visible in the relief.
[url:1mctq3m3]http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/7615/skythe28ak.jpg[/url]
Still I must say, the akinakes would then hang really quite low! Compared to the other versions I posted, they hang much closer to the waist.
Anyways, most likely I'll make another version of this soon, probably the quilted coat one.
Thanks a lot for the feedback.
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Giannis K. Hoplite - 11-17-2010
Don't take the sculpture too literally. I mean,if you see your own thigh when seated and where the akinakes and its handle would be positioned you will realize that it is very close to the waist.
Also,i have a suspicion that the belt was actually painted and the waist belt wasn't the one that is clearly visible now. This would be part of the cuirass. There is a different colour stipe leading upwards from the akinakes (could be two) that is faded out and i can't tell if it really exists or it's due to corrosion.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Merlkir - 11-17-2010
Right. That is indeed a possibility. Bloody lazy sculptor, making things easier for himself.
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - hoplite14gr - 11-17-2010
Nice impression.
I wonder what a phasmatoscopic analysis would reveal.
Kind regards
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Duncan Head - 12-01-2010
My suspicion is that the akinakes does hang from a belt, but it's not the belt that's visible over the cuirass. I suspect that in addition to the straps round the leg, the sheath was suspended from a second belt worn under the cuirass. I think I can just make out, in the detail photograph, an asymmetry to the fittings around the scabbard-mouth, which indicates an "ear" fitting - smaller than that on the Persepolis representations - disappearing up under the pteruges.
The armour and helmet are similar to styles shown on Persian seals, worn by warriors both on horseback and on foot, but I have never seen them in any larger artistic format until this sarcophagus turned up.
cheers,
Duncan
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - MeinPanzer - 12-02-2010
There is some commentary on the akinakes in N. Sevinç et al., “A New Painted Graeco-Persian Sarcophagus from Çan,” Studia Troica 11: 395:
Quote:Another unusual feature is that he wears the akinakes attached to his belt. This is common for men marching in processions, but not for those riding horses. The sword is usually attached to a strap and worn across the chest, as is done by the other two men in this scene. Attaching the akinakes to one's belt while riding seems to have been regarded as a risky undertaking, since it could become dislodged more easily, and the Can sarcophagus features the only equestrian with belt-tied akinakes that we have been able to find. Because of the risk, the akinakes has been doubly secured to the cuirass, with red straps connected to both the lateral projection of the scabbard and the handle of the sword. The straps must have continued up to the belt, although they are preserved only as far as the upper row of pteryges.
It seems to me that the authors are a bit off in their assessment here - the akinakes is always worn this way, so it is not unusual that a cavalryman is wearing it like this. What is unusual is a depiction of a cavalryman wearing an akinakes at all, as I can't find a single example of a mounted man wearing one elsewhere in Persian art. Nonetheless, figures on foot that must have been cavalrymen are shown wearing them in the standard fashion. I'm not sure I follow why attaching the akinakes to the belt is dangerous - surely it would be more secure than if it were attached to a freely hanging scabbard.
Also, I have to say based on the photographs provided in the article that I also disagree about the strap system. The remaining paint quite clearly shows that the strap was white, and what the authors take to be two red straps are in fact the rest of the two red pteryges behind the strap (the pteryges alternate red and white on the bottom row). This would also explain why the strap system mysteriously disappears after the second row - the upper row is entirely white (at least today), and so the strap, which was entirely painted on, disappears. Moreover, it would make no sense whatsoever to have the handle of the sword attached to the belt, limiting its reach severely.
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Duncan Head - 12-02-2010
Quote:What is unusual is a depiction of a cavalryman wearing an akinakes at all, as I can't find a single example of a mounted man wearing one elsewhere in Persian art. Nonetheless, figures on foot that must have been cavalrymen are shown wearing them in the standard fashion.
There's ANE 117760 in the BM - which they used to display as "probably Parthian", and still may, but Nigel Tallis in Forgotten Empire says it has "distinctively Achaemenian features". I can only find a photo from the left online - http://www.lessing-photo.com/dispimg.as ... cr=95&cl=1 - but one of the photos in FE shows the other side with the akinakes.
The Arinberd rhyton - Armenian, apparently of the Achaemenid period - does show a rider in "Median" dress with an akinakes, slung in the same manner as shown at Persepolis. See http://www.armeniaguide.com/images/appl ... inberd.gif
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Sean Manning - 12-04-2010
And to be fair, most of our images of mounted men from the Achaemenid empire are seals. They might have left out the akinakes as an unnecessary detail. The same for the Munich wood, which had only a limited palette of colours to work from.
Thanks for the rhyton image Duncan. I hadn`t seen it. Where can I find more photos?
There is also the anecdote about Cambyses stabbing himself in the thigh while mounting (Herodotus 3.64).
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Paullus Scipio - 12-04-2010
I would agree with Duncan and Ruben....what we are probably seeing is an akinakes hung from a belt under a 'Tube-and Yoke' corselet with large neck-guard and large shoulder guards going down the upper arms ( some scythian pieces have this extension to protect the upper arms also), and then strapped to the thigh 'gunslinger' style. This was common among steppe nomads and Parthians.
Nice to see you posting again, Duncan - welcome back! .......been a long time between drinks !!! :wink: :wink: :lol:
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Duncan Head - 12-04-2010
Quote:Thanks for the rhyton image Duncan. I hadn`t seen it. Where can I find more photos?
Two different pictures at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rebuni.JPG and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Achae ... blet01.jpg . Both of them are good enough resolution to show the eagle on the sides of the cap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebuni_Fortress is about the findspot and there is also a brief discussion of the Achaemenid presence at the site in an Iranica Antiqua article at http://acc.spc.uchicago.edu/atsmith/Ele ... 202006.pdf
Quote:Nice to see you posting again, Duncan - welcome back!I only dropped in more or less by accident because I was searching for stuff on the sarcophagus after a discussion of it on the ancmed Yahoo group - sparked by Chris Webber's photos from the Canakkale museum at http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll17 ... 0Persians/
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Merlkir - 12-06-2010
Thank you so much, everyone! And especially Mr. Head!
(I'm quite struck by the fact experts of your calibre are kind enough to reply in my thread.
)Many thanks also for the photos of the sarcophagus, I wasn't able to find any other photos of the rider myself.
If anyone was willing to share photos of the mentioned seals, I would be most grateful!
(I'm still planning to paint another take on this topic)
Re: Canakkale Persian armour reconstruction - Artabanos - 12-07-2010
Great work and interesting interpretation.
Thanks for the additional material posted in the thread.
Here is my interpretation of Persian heavy cavalry, it’s not a reconstruction of the Canakkale sacrophagus but a hybrid of it melted with all other information I had on Persian heavy cavalry a few years ago.