how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - Printable Version +- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat) +-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9) +--- Thread: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? (/showthread.php?tid=18543) |
how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - KrimzonKnight - 03-16-2011 Hello, im fairly new to this forum and this is my first post. Im fascinated with hoplites, specifically the spartans, but something iv never understood was how hoplites engaged in single combat. I know that hoplites were intended for phalanx warfare, the aspis design makes this obvious. But, surly individual combat between hoplites would have taken place on the battlefield? Are there not many vase paintings depicting this? Though I understand that many of these depictions would have been romanticized duels between heroes and such. if so is their any clue to how hoplites would have fought? Are there any mentions of hoplite individual combat in the writings of ancient historians? I mean the aspis grip makes the shield rather awkward for that purpose, its hard to block certain attacks without exposing yourself. I remember reading or hearing ( its been a while since i came about this) that the secrets of how the spartans used their shield in individual combat was hidden in their dances, as there are example that depict them dancing with shields? could there there be any truth to this? how effective could hoplites be in individual combat? Eric Nino Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - Matthew Amt - 03-16-2011 Khaire! And welcome to RAT! Individual combat for a hoplite would be fundamentally the same as for most other folks--block with the shield, thrust with the spear. The shield is a little heavier than some, but the grip arrangement gives you good control. Sure, the motions would be different from what you can do with a center grip shield, but we know it could be held face-on to the opponent, or edge-on. Even on my tall leggy frame, there is only a small gap between my shield and my greaves, and this can be covered very quickly by either swinging the shield down a little, or just crouching. Any use of most any shield potentially exposes something, so I don't see any significant problem, here. Europe was full of barbarians who used much smaller shields, and used them for individual combat often without any armor or helmet, so I'd say the average hoplite is ahead of the game! Vale, Matthew Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - Giannis K. Hoplite - 03-16-2011 Correct,and may i add that we do know that the "choplomachoi", teachers of fightng with weapons, were known in greece,and ritch men would hire them for their personal trainning. And we also know that these were supposed to provide skills mostly useful when one army breaks and what follows is mostly a mess where men are more likely to need skill in individual fighting. Khsire Giannis Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - KrimzonKnight - 03-17-2011 Thank you! Are you the same matthew amt that has the greek hoplie page? Iv been to that site many time, it was very informative. Eric Nino Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - KrimzonKnight - 03-17-2011 thank you as well Giannis! Do you know where i could read more about hoplite techniques in individual combat? Eric Nino Re: how effective were hoplites in individual comb - Matthew Amt - 03-17-2011 Quote:Thank you! Are you the same matthew amt that has the greek hoplie page? Iv been to that site many time, it was very informative. Yup, that's me. Glad you like it! I've just been doing a little updating, trying to fix all the %$#@(*#@ links to RAT... It needs a more thorough re-writing, but not tonight! Khaire, Matthew Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - PMBardunias - 03-17-2011 I would like to see someone with both combat fencing experience and spear handling take a look at the old treatises on rapier and target as shown in these images. Surely there must be some commonality. [attachment=334]Fencingshield.JPG[/attachment] One big drawback of the aspis is that it cannot be held at arm's length. This means that the area of coverage is greatly reduced compared to a single grip shield. This may be mitigated if most strikes were delivered overhand, because the commonly seem pose, with the bottom edge of the aspis brought up would shadow the lower body from strikes coming in from above. Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - PMBardunias - 03-18-2011 For an ancient ficticious account: Quote:Euripides, Phoenissae Re: how effective were hoplites in individual combat? - MeinPanzer - 03-18-2011 Quote:thank you as well Giannis! Do you know where i could read more about hoplite techniques in individual combat? J.K. Anderson's "Military theory and practice in the age of Xenophon" features an entire chapter on combat training for hoplites. |