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+--- Thread: Late Roman belt (/showthread.php?tid=18854)
Late Roman belt - Caballo - 05-16-2011
![[Image: Ludwicki-Guertel-und-Schwert.jpg]](http://cms.contubernium.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ludwicki-Guertel-und-Schwert.jpg)
![[Image: Ludwicki-Guertel-01.jpg]](http://cms.contubernium.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ludwicki-Guertel-01.jpg)
![[Image: Ludwicki-Guertel-03.jpg]](http://cms.contubernium.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ludwicki-Guertel-03.jpg)
Here is a lovely belt reconstruction http://cms.contubernium.de/?page_id=249
- fantastic work from Contubernium of Germany.
My German is very limited- could someone expand on the bone belt stiffeners and what was found in the grave?
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Late Roman belt - M. Demetrius - 05-16-2011
Very beautiful hardware. Was leather stamping done then? That's something I can do, finally!
The Romans were very fond of that concentric circle motif. I wonder if it had significance to them in other than a decorative way?
Also, I'm at the point of putting the "hooks" on the end of my sword hangar strap. What should they look like? I guess I can make them different ways, but I'm not sure about the proper style.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 05-16-2011
Quote:lso, I'm at the point of putting the "hooks" on the end of my sword hangar strap. What should they look like? I guess I can make them different ways, but I'm not sure about the proper style.
One idea?
![[Image: Ludwicki-Schwertaufhaengung-01.jpg]](http://cms.contubernium.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ludwicki-Schwertaufhaengung-01.jpg)
Re: Late Roman belt - M. Demetrius - 05-17-2011
Yep. That looks like what I'll do, but I am not up to the fine metalwork/decoration. Just a hook made like the loop fasteners on the front of Lorica Seg will do the trick, I think.
Pictures when I get that part done. Please don't laugh too hard when you see them.
Re: Late Roman belt - Yurko - 05-17-2011
Nicely done Caballo. Superb detail throughout as noticed by this humble, beginning enthusiast.
Since I've had the pleasure of joining the forum I've discovered that there are many reconstruction artists among this international group. Additionally, it would appear that late Roman is all the current craze at the moment as it holds the highest percentage of new kit posts.
Well done!
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 05-17-2011
Oh that is brilliant. A very neat reconstruction using the available evidence. I've not seen hooks used like that in a sword suspension before and I'm not sure it's correct (to my mind the sword hangs too low, looks like an awkward draw) but there's no denying that it's a possible and nicely executed interpretation. Top job Christoph!
Googletranslate does a reasonable job of making the text understandable to non-German speakers.
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 05-17-2011
Quote:The Romans were very fond of that concentric circle motif. I wonder if it had significance to them in other than a decorative way?
.
"Ring and dot" decoration is popular in Europe from the Bronze Age (possibly even earlier but I lose interest when you get as far back as pointy rocks) and seems to reach the height of it's popularity in the 5th-7th century. Very popular with the early English.
It might have a deeper symbolism, or it might just have been popular because it's a very, very simple geometric pattern to make with an easily made tool.
As for leather stamping...all the stuff I can think of off the top of my head (Vindolanda chamfrons, various shoes) is carved/tooled rather than stamped.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 05-17-2011
And I should point out that Peronis (adrian Wink) first spotted this belt and flagged it to me. I think its a beaut.
Re: Late Roman belt - Cheyenne - 05-17-2011
Thats a beautiful belt and beautiful Spatha.
I am interested in the evidence for the bone stiffeners - I was thinking of doing some fo my next L/R belt. Some refs would be very welcome.
Matt, yes your right - the dot and ring exists in a number of Bronze Age contexts. There are a number at Kilmartin in Argyll, Scotland and also up on the North east coast of Scotland off the top of my head. Some scholars place the design further back into the later part of the Neolithic with rock art from the French Med.
I've got dot and ring imagery on my Bronze Age tattoo!
Re: Late Roman belt - gaiusseptimiuslucianus - 05-18-2011
Caballo,
Thank you for sharing that belt, it's an impressive piece of work. I think its an interesting solution to what might have been going on with those double width rivets. I have been wondering about belts with just a few stiffeners/mounts on them from this period and slightly later, whether they were decorated with fancy stitching/painting/tooling or cut outs (like the earlier Gommern belt) or in this case organic materials. Knowing how often objects received surface decoration, it would seem self evident that belts would have been decorated too, but unless I can get my time machine working again, I'll not know for sure! :lol:
Lucianus
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 05-18-2011
![[Image: JuelicherFund-862x1024.jpg]](http://cms.contubernium.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/JuelicherFund-862x1024.jpg)
Looking at the drawing above of the grave items that this belt was reconstructed from, it has strong parallels with the Donderberg grave
![[Image: donderberggravelateroman.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/donderberggravelateroman.jpg)
...and the Dorchester on Thames grave.
![[Image: 20.jpg]](http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/hwb/20.jpg)
The buckles, strap ends, belt hanger/ loops, and belt ends are all the same basic design.
These dragon buckles (http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ceejays_site/pages/dragon_buckles.htm) are usually found in continental Europe and have been identified with the Field army. I saw similar buckles in the museum at Split, Croatia, where Diocletian had his palace.
![[Image: DSCN0258.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/DSCN0258.jpg)
Heres the replica of the Dorchester belt that I made with parts from Nodge Nolan and Armamentaria
![[Image: Dorchesterbelt.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/Dorchesterbelt.jpg)
and an article on it http://www.romanarmy.net/dorchester.htmI suggest that these belts all belong to the Field Army, and their wide spread use yet similarity reflects this mobile force?
Re: Late Roman belt - M. Demetrius - 05-18-2011
That is gorgeous stuff! Any idea of the dimensions of that spear point?
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 05-18-2011
Quote:I suggest that these belts all belong to the Field Army, and their wide spread use yet similarity reflects this mobile force?
I don't think they can be limited to just the field army though, as they turn up in urban cemeteries in graves with no other military items(eg Lankhills).
They're also depicted on mosaics of the period. I think all of the hunters on the Romano del Tellaro hunt mosaic are wearing wide belts....mind you, I suppose that with their spears and shields, that could be depicting a military unit out hunting whilst it's commanders relax and drink hot wine.
WHere's the pic of the Donderberg grave finds from Paul?
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 05-18-2011
Hi,
Demetrius- Thanks- Not sure of the spear dimensions. Does anyone else know?
Matt- The Donderberg grave pic came from Armed Batavians: Use and Significance of Weaponry and Horse Gear from Non-military Contexts in the Rhine Delta (50 BC to AD 450)by Johan Nicolay (republished from Bohme, 1974 (?))
And I agree re wide belts being much used- but I was more thinking about the dragon headed buckles, belt stiffeners and strap ends as indicators of the Field army rather than just the width of the belt? Thoughts?
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 05-19-2011
Quote:And I agree re wide belts being much used- but I was more thinking about the dragon headed buckles, belt stiffeners and strap ends as indicators of the Field army rather than just the width of the belt? Thoughts?
Ahh, I'm not familiar enough with specific distribution patterns in Europe to debate this; we need Stu Laycock to join in really.
"Soldiers and Settlers in Britain, 4th to 5th Century - Revisited (Leahy, in Collectanea Antiqua. BAR International Series 1673) takes a fresh look (after SC Hawkes)at the belt fitting evidence for Britain and proposes an interesting alternative to explain the quality and distribution of such fittings. Seen it yet?